Everyone is qualia blind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Brent.Allsop
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Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Brent.Allsop »

Everyone thinks there is a “hard” mind body problem.
But isn’t it just sloppy epistemology of color, that is our problem?

I would love to hear if everyone does or does not agrees with the “correct” answers to this Socratic method test to help people understand intrinsic qualities, asking: “Are you Qualia Blind?
commonsense
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by commonsense »

This thread is a duplicate of the other one.
Brent.Allsop
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Brent.Allsop »

commonsense wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:38 pm This thread is a duplicate of the other one.
Yes, and here is the link to the other thread in the epistemology section. It's just that most would probably agree that this has more to do with theory of mind, than with epistemology. Us theory of mind people are just sloppy at epistemology of color, causing all our so called "hard problems".
SteveKlinko
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by SteveKlinko »

Brent.Allsop wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 4:39 pm Everyone thinks there is a “hard” mind body problem.
But isn’t it just sloppy epistemology of color, that is our problem?

I would love to hear if everyone does or does not agrees with the “correct” answers to this Socratic method test to help people understand intrinsic qualities, asking: “Are you Qualia Blind?
When you say sloppy Epistemology of Color I guess you are saying that we just don't understand Color in the right way. I spent some time at the link you posted. But I am still stuck at the very real existence of the Hard Problem. Given:

1) Neurons associated with Redness fire.
2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens.

How can 1 produce 2? That is the simple and fundamental question of the Hard Problem. All the theories in the world do not even begin to solve this problem. Can you elaborate on what you believe is the Epistemological sloppiness associated with this?
AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 3:38 pm 1) Neurons associated with Redness fire.
2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens.

How can 1 produce 2?
Maybe 1 is not required to produce 2...
"A Conscious Experience of Redness" can also happen in a dream - there are no Neurons firing but Redness still happens.
How?
Maybe the dream (which is simply: consciousness) simply generates Redness in (and as) itself?
What if Neurons are also simply consciousness, Redness is consciousness ... everything is consciousness...
If this were so then there is no more "Hard Problem".
SteveKlinko
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by SteveKlinko »

AlexW wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 6:22 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 3:38 pm 1) Neurons associated with Redness fire.
2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens.

How can 1 produce 2?
Maybe 1 is not required to produce 2...
"A Conscious Experience of Redness" can also happen in a dream - there are no Neurons firing but Redness still happens.
How?
Maybe the dream (which is simply: consciousness) simply generates Redness in (and as) itself?
What if Neurons are also simply consciousness, Redness is consciousness ... everything is consciousness...
If this were so then there is no more "Hard Problem".
There is a tremendous amount of Neural Activity going on when we are Dreaming. Speculations are good when it comes to Consciousness, but what we need are Explanations.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Dontaskme »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 11:15 am There is a tremendous amount of Neural Activity going on when we are Dreaming. Speculations are good when it comes to Consciousness, but what we need are Explanations.
Explanations require knowledge.

Knowledge can only point to the illusory dreamlike nature of it's reality as being exactly as it is described.

Now describe Consciousness?
AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 11:15 am There is a tremendous amount of Neural Activity going on when we are Dreaming. Speculations are good when it comes to Consciousness, but what we need are Explanations.
One explanation is soon superseded by another and another... do you really think there can be a final, true explanation?
I don’t... at the end, explanations are just interpretations based on the sciences and beliefs of the current century...
SteveKlinko
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:24 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 11:15 am There is a tremendous amount of Neural Activity going on when we are Dreaming. Speculations are good when it comes to Consciousness, but what we need are Explanations.
Explanations require knowledge.

Knowledge can only point to the illusory dreamlike nature of it's reality as being exactly as it is described.

Now describe Consciousness?
The broad scope of general Consciousness is too wide. I want to start with something more simple like what is the Conscious Experience of Redness? It is not possible to describe Redness. It can only be Experienced because it is only in the Mind.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by SteveKlinko »

AlexW wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 11:15 am There is a tremendous amount of Neural Activity going on when we are Dreaming. Speculations are good when it comes to Consciousness, but what we need are Explanations.
One explanation is soon superseded by another and another... do you really think there can be a final, true explanation?
I don’t... at the end, explanations are just interpretations based on the sciences and beliefs of the current century...
I fully expect that there will be final Explanations for everything, including Consciousness. Your implication that previous interpretations are all worthless when new interpretations are discovered is just wrong. Knowledge builds on itself.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Dontaskme »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 pm The broad scope of general Consciousness is too wide. I want to start with something more simple like what is the Conscious Experience of Redness?
It's Consciousness.

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 pm It is not possible to describe Redness. It can only be Experienced because it is only in the Mind.
Explain the experience of Redness?
SteveKlinko
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:40 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 pm The broad scope of general Consciousness is too wide. I want to start with something more simple like what is the Conscious Experience of Redness?
It's Consciousness.

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 pm It is not possible to describe Redness. It can only be Experienced because it is only in the Mind.
Explain the experience of Redness?
When I say it's impossible to Describe Redness I mean it's impossible to Explain Redness. You can only Experience Redness.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Dontaskme »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 3:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:40 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 pm The broad scope of general Consciousness is too wide. I want to start with something more simple like what is the Conscious Experience of Redness?
It's Consciousness.

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 pm It is not possible to describe Redness. It can only be Experienced because it is only in the Mind.
Explain the experience of Redness?
You can only Experience Redness.
Red is an experience. Yes.

Does this experience need to be explained. No

What would there be to explain about this Red experience?
Impenitent
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Impenitent »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 3:58 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 3:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:40 pm

It's Consciousness.




Explain the experience of Redness?
You can only Experience Redness.
Red is an experience. Yes.

Does this experience need to be explained. No

What would there be to explain about this Red experience?
embarrassed communists

-Imp
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Sculptor
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by Sculptor »

Brent.Allsop wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 4:39 pm Everyone thinks there is a “hard” mind body problem.
But isn’t it just sloppy epistemology of color, that is our problem?

I would love to hear if everyone does or does not agrees with the “correct” answers to this Socratic method test to help people understand intrinsic qualities, asking: “Are you Qualia Blind?
Define.
What is Qualia Blindness?
How would a person, not qualia blind (a) differ from a person who is qualia blind (b)?
What does a and b understand about "red"?
What does b lack that a has?

I think it would be helpful for you to answer these questions without directing people out of the thread to the questionnaire, using your own words plainly.
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