Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:27 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:23 pm But knowing all this still leaves the unanswered question of How do the Neurons produce the Light Experience? But this is a question for me to answer. I understand your position on this.
A question can only arise to the sense of a ''separate self'' where in reality, there isn't one, that 'separate self' is an artificially generated self that is nothing more than a conceptual appearance..aka a 'thought' within the mind.
There is no individual identity known as a ''me'' that is Awareness ...no more than the human character in a nightly dream exists apart from the dreamer. I AM Awareness is ONE .. everything .. and not - a - thing.
Science already confirm this.
Science knows Zero about Consciousness and Self.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:27 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:23 pm I also wish you all the Best in what you seek.
There is actually no seeker except in the dream of separation a duality artificially created by the mind.

'what you seek is seeking you' ...it's a closed loop.

Everything that's happening is inside you.It's all in our brain. It's all the chemicals firing in our brain.

There is no 'me' inside the brain - there is only ever brain braining.

Honestly Steve, consciousness cannot get a peek up it's own skirt, that would require two consciousnessness which is impossible.

You cannot even look for consciousness using technology like MRI scanning for that too is an appearance in consciousness.

No ''me'' has ever seen consciousness. Conciousness is the ONLY seeing there is.

All images are images of the imageless. All colours originate from total opaque transparency...sound,colour, and image is an optical illusion of the senses. In other words one big giant hallucination of the brain.

.
I have tried to understand the Oneness concept for decades now. I can never get started on it because of the Obvious Duality of my reality. I have recently recognized that some people, maybe many people, do not Experience Qualia. I am beginning to wonder if you in fact actually do Experience Qualia. This would completely Explain your sense that something like Redness was not something apart from you. If you had Experienced the Redness as a Quale you would not be able to hold that Non Dualist view. There is the Experience and there is the Experiencer in my reality.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:52 am If you had Experienced the Redness as a Quale you would not be able to hold that Non Dualist view. There is the Experience and there is the Experiencer in my reality.
Steve, there has to be Awareness to experience any sensation. Awareness of a sensation is the experience, while awareness itself cannot be an experience, simply because only a sensation can be an experience. When no sensation is present there is no experiencing happening. However awareness is still present whether there is sensation or not.

There is no such thing as a nondualist view. A view point is just an appearance. There is no such thing as Nonduality because Nonduality is not a thing.

The idea that there is a ''my'' reality is a conceptually known appearance in no reality. Can't have one without the other, but they are each one and the same reality no-reality...non-dual reality.

.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:04 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:52 am If you had Experienced the Redness as a Quale you would not be able to hold that Non Dualist view. There is the Experience and there is the Experiencer in my reality.
Steve, there has to be Awareness to experience any sensation. Awareness of a sensation is the experience, while awareness itself cannot be an experience, simply because only a sensation can be an experience. When no sensation is present there is no experiencing happening. However awareness is still present whether there is sensation or not.

There is no such thing as a nondualist view. A view point is just an appearance. There is no such thing as Nonduality because Nonduality is not a thing.

The idea that there is a ''my'' reality is a conceptually known appearance in no reality. Can't have one without the other, but they are each one and the same reality no-reality...non-dual reality.

.
I'm not sure if I disagree with this or I just don't understand it. I'll keep thinking ...
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:10 pm I'm not sure if I disagree with this or I just don't understand it. I'll keep thinking ...
Steve, your a good egg.

May you live always in the light of your lovely light.

Thinking is like a virus, the trick is not to allow it to infect your mind with wrong thinking. :wink:
SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:10 pm I'm not sure if I disagree with this or I just don't understand it. I'll keep thinking ...
Steve, your a good egg.

May you live always in the light of your lovely light.

Thinking is like a virus, the trick is not to allow it to infect your mind with wrong thinking. :wink:
Thank You and to You too. Timely Virus Metaphor.
AlexW
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by AlexW »

SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:36 am No one can ever know what another Mind is Experiencing. We can only guess at what another Mind might be Experiencing after a very long time of interacting with that other Mind. Just because you say you can See the Color Red does not mean you are Experiencing the Quale. You might have always just Detected Red in some way without an Experience of Redness (Redness Qualia).

You start from the point of view that Non Duality is true. I start from the point of View that Duality is true. We have different perspectives. I have a very definite sense of being a separate Observer of some kind when I Experience Redness. I guess you do not have that sense of being a separate Observing Mind. Can't imagine what that would be like.

All I can say is that from my point of view I can understand how you might not be able to recognize the Qualia as being separate from your Self. This would happen if you had never actually Experienced the Qualia. Your sense of Non-Duality probably arises due to the absence of Qualia in your reality. Many people are like this. I'm not say that having Qualia is better than how you might Detect Red, I'm just saying that we are different.
Sure, everyone is different... all I am trying to say is: investigate your direct experience, question everything (especially what thought tells you about it), imagine that you know nothing of all the separate things (e.g. the quale of redness) and then see what is left.

As long as you rely on thought to tell you what is there and what is not you will always only have a perspective of reality, you will live in the interpretation - put aside all the analytical thinking and BE real (it doesn't matter if you believe in duality and somebody else in "non-duality" - reality doesn't care a bit about beliefs.. it simply is as it is, and it wont ever bow down to or follow any interpretation).

Non duality is simply another perspective, one that (to me) seems to be closer to reality than duality - but in the end they are both interpretations and thus equally far off from the "truth".
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:52 amScience knows Zero about Consciousness and Self.
Exactly, because there is zero knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:11 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:52 amScience knows Zero about Consciousness and Self.
Exactly, because there is zero knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing.
But can there someday be Non-Zero Knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing? Or are we stuck with Zero Knowing forever?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:11 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:52 amScience knows Zero about Consciousness and Self.
Exactly, because there is zero knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing.
But can there someday be Non-Zero Knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing? Or are we stuck with Zero Knowing forever?
No...because Zero knowing of not knowing knowing is known.

What is known can never be NOT KNOWN.
Impenitent
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Impenitent »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:10 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:11 am

Exactly, because there is zero knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing.
But can there someday be Non-Zero Knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing? Or are we stuck with Zero Knowing forever?
No...because Zero knowing of not knowing knowing is known.

What is known can never be NOT KNOWN.
I didn't know that I never knew that

I knew the gnu who ate my shoe

Took him to Elmer who made gnu glue

-Imp
SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:10 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:11 am

Exactly, because there is zero knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing.
But can there someday be Non-Zero Knowing of what is essentially not-knowing knowing? Or are we stuck with Zero Knowing forever?
No...because Zero knowing of not knowing knowing is known.

What is known can never be NOT KNOWN.
Now I'm really confused. But I'll keep thinking about it. I'm sure it all goes back to this Oneness thing which I don't get anyway.
Dimebag
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Dimebag »

In regard to self vs other I have a short conceptual explanation which helps me a little, though don’t expect it to collapse the distinction through this conceptual knowing.
Here is the way I look at it.

You, which is nothing but awareness, have layers of experience which are superimposed upon you, like layers in photoshop, you being the canvas. The layers of experience, thoughts, ego all get layered on top of the canvas of awareness, and the role of the self model is to determine which of these layers is the world and which of the layers are “you”. If it thinks thoughts, ego, feelings, are you, awareness will merge with those layers and look “as” them, or identify with them. If you can look at the layers rather than as them, you don’t merge, and the self model can view those layers as not you, leaving you as awareness. This is still a dualistic awareness.

somehow, it has to be seen by the self model with the help of awareness, that these distinctions between you and not you are actually illusory, and the distinctions disappear, leaving awareness neither attached nor detached to the other layers. I don’t know how that could be, other than if the self model is either modified to not see any distinctions between the canvas and the layers, so it doesn’t have any option other than.... isness, no self, no other.

maybe another way of looking at awareness and the “layers” is, rather than being separate from awareness, the layers are actually disturbances within awareness, like waves in an ocean. To draw a distinction between the waves of experience within the ocean of awareness is simply conceptual, it is all awareness. This needs to be realised by the self model.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Dimebag wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 am In regard to self vs other I have a short conceptual explanation which helps me a little, though don’t expect it to collapse the distinction through this conceptual knowing.
Here is the way I look at it.

You, which is nothing but awareness, have layers of experience which are superimposed upon you, like layers in photoshop, you being the canvas. The layers of experience, thoughts, ego all get layered on top of the canvas of awareness, and the role of the self model is to determine which of these layers is the world and which of the layers are “you”. If it thinks thoughts, ego, feelings, are you, awareness will merge with those layers and look “as” them, or identify with them. If you can look at the layers rather than as them, you don’t merge, and the self model can view those layers as not you, leaving you as awareness. This is still a dualistic awareness.

somehow, it has to be seen by the self model with the help of awareness, that these distinctions between you and not you are actually illusory, and the distinctions disappear, leaving awareness neither attached nor detached to the other layers. I don’t know how that could be, other than if the self model is either modified to not see any distinctions between the canvas and the layers, so it doesn’t have any option other than.... isness, no self, no other.

maybe another way of looking at awareness and the “layers” is, rather than being separate from awareness, the layers are actually disturbances within awareness, like waves in an ocean. To draw a distinction between the waves of experience within the ocean of awareness is simply conceptual, it is all awareness. This needs to be realised by the self model.
On an Intellectual and Logical Level I can understand Oneness this way. But when I Experience something like Redness I am unable to Intuitively feel that the Redness is me. The Redness seems like it is apart from me. Even my own Logical development from the Inter Mind tells me that I am that Redness, or any other Colorness, or Lightness in general. I know that I am my Internal Light Logically, but I do not feel like I am my Light. I am always an observer of Redness.
Last edited by SteveKlinko on Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Temporal circuit of macroscale dynamic brain activity supports human consciousness
The ongoing stream of human consciousness relies on two distinct cortical systems, the default mode network and the dorsal attention network, which alternate their activity in an anticorrelated manner. We examined how the two systems are regulated in the conscious brain and how they are disrupted when consciousness is diminished. We provide evidence for a “temporal circuit” characterized by a set of trajectories along which dynamic brain activity occurs. We demonstrate that the transitions between default mode and dorsal attention networks are embedded in this temporal circuit, in which a balanced reciprocal accessibility of brain states is characteristic of consciousness. Conversely, isolation of the default mode and dorsal attention networks from the temporal circuit is associated with unresponsiveness of diverse etiologies. These findings advance the foundational understanding of the functional role of anticorrelated systems in consciousness.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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Skepdick wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am Temporal circuit of macroscale dynamic brain activity supports human consciousness
The ongoing stream of human consciousness relies on two distinct cortical systems, the default mode network and the dorsal attention network, which alternate their activity in an anticorrelated manner. We examined how the two systems are regulated in the conscious brain and how they are disrupted when consciousness is diminished. We provide evidence for a “temporal circuit” characterized by a set of trajectories along which dynamic brain activity occurs. We demonstrate that the transitions between default mode and dorsal attention networks are embedded in this temporal circuit, in which a balanced reciprocal accessibility of brain states is characteristic of consciousness. Conversely, isolation of the default mode and dorsal attention networks from the temporal circuit is associated with unresponsiveness of diverse etiologies. These findings advance the foundational understanding of the functional role of anticorrelated systems in consciousness.
This is all good Easy Problem findings. From this or any other kind of Neural Activity then, how can it be Explained that some people do not Experience things like Redness, Standard A Toneness, and Salty Tasteness. They self admittedly do not. These things seem like Religious experiences to them when you talk about them. Their Minds seem to be more Consciously imbedded in their Neurons for Perception.
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