The grand illusion that is YOU

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

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bahman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:00 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:48 am
bahman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:22 am
That is the grand delusion.
Or just a play on words.
Self-evolving ideas? No. There are only evolving ideas and for that you need mind.
Mind IS an idea.

Concepts like birth and death are ideas... appearing as a language which is translated as knowledge appearing in the form of concepts which can only point one to their illusory nature. In the context there is no actual thing in the word thing. The word 'thing' is just an empty idea appearing full.

Only a concept can be KNOWN, and a concept has no experience of any life nor death...for reasons I've just explained above.

For every appearance and disappearance of what is known to be 'you' aka a concept...is sourced from what has ALWAYS EXISTED....else no appearance or disappearance would ever show OR become KNOWN

So that which has always existed cannot die, nor can that which has always existed live. The concepts 'live and die' are empty knowledge known that cannot be an experience, for the KNOWN know nothing.

Concepts known are of the mind as an idea, and even the mind itself is an idea.

Life and birth only exist in the realm of knowledge, the dream state, the illusory dream of separation, the realm of artificial knowledge.


If it is possible for a 'you' to exist at all .... then that 'you' must have ALWAYS EXISTED...for 'you' to be here now, 'you' must have always been here. How can 'you' NEVER not be here...'you' cannot experience your own absence or presence.

You are always and never not here. Only the concept of you is born and dies...NOT YOU...because there is no one other than YOU.

In other words..there is NO 'you' because there is no other than 'you'.





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commonsense
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by commonsense »

Is can only be known to mind because at the same time there is is there is no is. And since only mind can know you there can be no you unless there is (is).
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bahman
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 am
bahman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:00 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:48 am

Or just a play on words.
Self-evolving ideas? No. There are only evolving ideas and for that you need mind.
Mind IS an idea.
No, mind is the essence of any being with ability to experience (experience ideas), decide and cause (create ideas). You are mixing things. I have an argument for existence of mind given its properties: Consider a change in a system, X to Y where X and Y are two different states of affair. X has to vanishes before Y is caused. There is, however, nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore, there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

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commonsense wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:26 pm Is can only be known to mind because at the same time there is is there is no is. And since only mind can know you there can be no you unless there is (is).
Agreed.

The mind is a concept KNOWN.

The mind knows itself as a concept only, yet no mind has ever been seen.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

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bahman wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:05 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 am
bahman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:00 pm
Self-evolving ideas? No. There are only evolving ideas and for that you need mind.
Mind IS an idea.
No, mind is the essence of any being with ability to experience (experience ideas), decide and cause (create ideas). You are mixing things. I have an argument for existence of mind given its properties: Consider a change in a system, X to Y where X and Y are two different states of affair. X has to vanishes before Y is caused. There is, however, nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore, there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.
I don't see it the way you see it.

I see it like this...> The mind does not experience ideas. The mind is the experience, the mind is the idea.

We only see effects, not the cause of the effect..aka the mind. Therefore the effect is the KNOWN, and that known cannot know it's maker, nor can it see it. And yet It IS IT



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bahman
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:25 am
bahman wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:05 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 am
Mind IS an idea.
No, mind is the essence of any being with ability to experience (experience ideas), decide and cause (create ideas). You are mixing things. I have an argument for existence of mind given its properties: Consider a change in a system, X to Y where X and Y are two different states of affair. X has to vanishes before Y is caused. There is, however, nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore, there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.
I don't see it the way you see it.

I see it like this...> The mind does not experience ideas. The mind is the experience, the mind is the idea.

We only see effects, not the cause of the effect..aka the mind. Therefore the effect is the KNOWN, and that known cannot know it's maker, nor can it see it. And yet It IS IT



.
You don't pay any attention to my argument.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:33 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:25 am
bahman wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:05 pm
No, mind is the essence of any being with ability to experience (experience ideas), decide and cause (create ideas). You are mixing things. I have an argument for existence of mind given its properties: Consider a change in a system, X to Y where X and Y are two different states of affair. X has to vanishes before Y is caused. There is, however, nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore, there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.
I don't see it the way you see it.

I see it like this...> The mind does not experience ideas. The mind is the experience, the mind is the idea.

We only see effects, not the cause of the effect..aka the mind. Therefore the effect is the KNOWN, and that known cannot know it's maker, nor can it see it. And yet It IS IT



.
You don't pay any attention to my argument.
You are saying there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.

And I'm saying the mind does not experience or cause anything,except in this conception, an illusory dream. The mind is just a ''thought'' in awareness, it's a concept known which is just another term for ''thought''...and these thoughts are known by awareness and is how the dream world of thought is known to itself, in the experience that is the dream, but it's all conceptual.

''thought's'' are concepts, and their only substance is Consciousness which is an aspect of Awareness in contact with itself albeit illusory because Consciousness is never connected to any thing because there is nothing else present with which it could be connected. Consciousness is all there IS ..it's the dream, and only the dream is known.

Experiences..aka conceptual dreams come and go in a consciousness that remains ever self shining and doesn't go anywhere, nor does it appear, because consciousness is not an experience..Mind, as such, is a concept, not an experience.

Mind is the experience, it's the experiencing awareness is having, and while experiences come and go awareness does not.

.
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bahman
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:02 am
bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:33 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:25 am

I don't see it the way you see it.

I see it like this...> The mind does not experience ideas. The mind is the experience, the mind is the idea.

We only see effects, not the cause of the effect..aka the mind. Therefore the effect is the KNOWN, and that known cannot know it's maker, nor can it see it. And yet It IS IT



.
You don't pay any attention to my argument.
You are saying there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.

And I'm saying the mind does not experience or cause anything,except in this conception, an illusory dream. The mind is just a ''thought'' in awareness, it's a concept known which is just another term for ''thought''...and these thoughts are known by awareness and is how the dream world of thought is known to itself, in the experience that is the dream, but it's all conceptual.

''thought's'' are concepts, and their only substance is Consciousness which is an aspect of Awareness in contact with itself albeit illusory because Consciousness is never connected to any thing because there is nothing else present with which it could be connected. Consciousness is all there IS ..it's the dream, and only the dream is known.

Experiences..aka conceptual dreams come and go in a consciousness that remains ever self shining and doesn't go anywhere, nor does it appear, because consciousness is not an experience..Mind, as such, is a concept, not an experience.

Mind is the experience, it's the experiencing awareness is having, and while experiences come and go awareness does not.

.
I understand what you are saying. One, however, has to go from one state of affair to another state of affair when there is a change. There is, however, nothing between two states of affair and nothing cannot possibly coherently cause the second state of affair. Therefore, there must exist an entity that can fill the gap between two states of affair, so-called mind.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:48 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:02 am
bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:33 am
You don't pay any attention to my argument.
You are saying there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.

And I'm saying the mind does not experience or cause anything,except in this conception, an illusory dream. The mind is just a ''thought'' in awareness, it's a concept known which is just another term for ''thought''...and these thoughts are known by awareness and is how the dream world of thought is known to itself, in the experience that is the dream, but it's all conceptual.

''thought's'' are concepts, and their only substance is Consciousness which is an aspect of Awareness in contact with itself albeit illusory because Consciousness is never connected to any thing because there is nothing else present with which it could be connected. Consciousness is all there IS ..it's the dream, and only the dream is known.

Experiences..aka conceptual dreams come and go in a consciousness that remains ever self shining and doesn't go anywhere, nor does it appear, because consciousness is not an experience..Mind, as such, is a concept, not an experience.

Mind is the experience, it's the experiencing awareness is having, and while experiences come and go awareness does not.

.
I understand what you are saying. One, however, has to go from one state of affair to another state of affair when there is a change. There is, however, nothing between two states of affair and nothing cannot possibly coherently cause the second state of affair. Therefore, there must exist an entity that can fill the gap between two states of affair, so-called mind.
Any gap filler is nought but a phantom gap closer.

To fill a gap is to close the gap.

The phantom entity is both full and empty at the same time.

.
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bahman
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:37 am
bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:48 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:02 am

You are saying there must exist a mind that has the ability to experience and cause.

And I'm saying the mind does not experience or cause anything,except in this conception, an illusory dream. The mind is just a ''thought'' in awareness, it's a concept known which is just another term for ''thought''...and these thoughts are known by awareness and is how the dream world of thought is known to itself, in the experience that is the dream, but it's all conceptual.

''thought's'' are concepts, and their only substance is Consciousness which is an aspect of Awareness in contact with itself albeit illusory because Consciousness is never connected to any thing because there is nothing else present with which it could be connected. Consciousness is all there IS ..it's the dream, and only the dream is known.

Experiences..aka conceptual dreams come and go in a consciousness that remains ever self shining and doesn't go anywhere, nor does it appear, because consciousness is not an experience..Mind, as such, is a concept, not an experience.

Mind is the experience, it's the experiencing awareness is having, and while experiences come and go awareness does not.

.
I understand what you are saying. One, however, has to go from one state of affair to another state of affair when there is a change. There is, however, nothing between two states of affair and nothing cannot possibly coherently cause the second state of affair. Therefore, there must exist an entity that can fill the gap between two states of affair, so-called mind.
Any gap filler is nought but a phantom gap closer.
Any gap filler is mind because what appears after the gap is closed is correlate to the before.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:37 am To fill a gap is to close the gap.
The gap is closed when mind causes.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:37 am The phantom entity is both full and empty at the same time.

.
That is an impossibility by definition.
AlexW
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:48 pm There is, however, nothing between two states of affair
How do you know that? Have you observed this "nothing" which you say is in-between "two states of affair"?
Can you actually observe "nothing"? If not then how can you say it exists as something that is between two other somethings?
And ... if it would exist as a something than it would itself be another "state of affairs" - wouldn't it?
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bahman
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by bahman »

AlexW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:08 am
bahman wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:48 pm There is, however, nothing between two states of affair
How do you know that? Have you observed this "nothing" which you say is in-between "two states of affair"?
Can you actually observe "nothing"? If not then how can you say it exists as something that is between two other somethings?
And ... if it would exist as a something than it would itself be another "state of affairs" - wouldn't it?
There is nothing at the moment that you decide and cause. You couldn't possibly cause something otherwise, if there was something there. This is true because you cannot have two states of affair at the same point.
AlexW
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:31 am There is nothing at the moment that you decide and cause.
Have you observed this to be so? If so, how?
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:31 am You couldn't possibly cause something otherwise
and maybe you actually don't anyway... have you ever thought about that? (that "you" cannot cause anything)
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:31 am This is true because you cannot have two states of affair at the same point.
What if a "state of affair" doesn't really exist outside the idea that it does? Do discreet states still exist if a state were nothing but a thought/concept (an interpretation)?
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bahman
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by bahman »

AlexW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:39 am
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:31 am There is nothing at the moment that you decide and cause.
Have you observed this to be so? If so, how?
I believe that is the state that you could reach it by deep meditation.
AlexW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:39 am
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:31 am You couldn't possibly cause something otherwise
and maybe you actually don't anyway... have you ever thought about that? (that "you" cannot cause anything)
You are constanly causing or you are in state of meditation.
AlexW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:39 am
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:31 am This is true because you cannot have two states of affair at the same point.
What if a "state of affair" doesn't really exist outside the idea that it does?
You experience it therefore it exists. It could be an idea that someone else is putting inside your mind too. It could be something that you create, such as a thought or a want to do something.
AlexW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:39 am Do discreet states still exist if a state were nothing but a thought/concept (an interpretation)?
The reality in its core is discrete as it is illustrated by my argument. Why we experience it continuously is another question. Our brain is simply a barrier since it cannot digitize the information that we perceive fast enough.
AlexW
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Re: The grand illusion that is YOU

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am I believe that is the state that you could reach it by deep meditation.
Ok... so you haven't actually observed it.
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am You are constanly causing or you are in state of meditation.
What exactly is the "you" in this sentence?
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am You experience it therefore it exists.
I have never experienced a discrete state - yes, I can think about states, but I cannot experience them directly.
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am It could be something that you create, such as a thought
How do you create a thought? What exactly do you have to do to make a thought happen/arise?
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am The reality in its core is discrete as it is illustrated by my argument.
Just because you illustrate it, it doesn't have to be so... it is a proposal, your personal interpretation, not a fact.
bahman wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:02 am Why we experience it continuously is another question. Our brain is simply a barrier since it cannot digitize the information that we perceive fast enough.
If brains "digitize the information that we perceive" then the received data would initially have to be analog/continuous in nature (digitizing digital data wouldn't make much sense, would it?).
Thus the question "Why we experience it continuously" is already answered: because experience is analog/continuous and not split into small separate chunks.
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