bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:24 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:02 am
If strong emergence is pure speculation then tell me how a deterministic process can lead to the decision-making process which is purely indeterministic.
If it is Bahman who experiences, decides and causes then what is the need for the mind. How do you know that there is an emergence at all? I would say that everything in universe experiences, decides and causes.
As I had explained, what is termed "mind" is merely a convenience and an effective approach to represent the mental actions of an empirical person.
The loose concept of 'mind' is very useful for psychology;
You didn't answer my question. How do you know that there is an emergence of consciousness for example? How do you know that things in universe don't experience?
You missed my point totally.
I know there is an emergence of human consciousness from observing empirical humans having and displaying their consciousness, i.e. self-conscious and other types of consciousness.
This is so evident empirically.
It is so evident to the person and others that human has wakeful, dream, and other types of consciousness.
Note consciousness in the modern perspective is;
Wiki wrote:Today, with modern research into the brain it [consciousness] often includes any kind of experience, cognition, feeling or perception. It may be 'awareness', or 'awareness of awareness', or self-awareness. There might be different levels or "orders" of consciousness, or different kinds of consciousness, or just one kind with different features.
I don't have to be bothered with whether the Universes "experiences" or not.
The onus is for you to prove that the Universe experiences which in my view is an impossibility to start with.
You are not paying attention to my argument and just repeat yourself. I know that there are around 7 billion people around the world. This, however, is in conflict with the assumption of one interdependent process since there is only one person for each process.
I am trying hard to understand your point but I believe your communication and explanation in this case is not clear.
I am still guessing your intended point;
Say there is on interdependent process of the Water Cycle, and there is one process for each iceberg in the ocean, but they are all interdependent.
You need to prove/show two things: 1) Things in universe do not have consciousness and 2) how consciousness is possible.
Nope it is you who has to prove things [non living things] in the Universe has consciousness.
I don't have to prove how conscious is possible.
All I have to prove is humans are conscious and have various conscious states and act differently within these varying conscious states.
You yourself can confirm you are conscious and are subject to various states of consciousness and you can extrapolate that to all normal human beings.
We and all can raise the hypothesis, how consciousness is possible?, but we do not have to jump to conclusion like you do, i.e. there is an entity called mind that is responsible for consciousness.
Your jumping to conclusion or eagerness to get to a conclusion is heavily weighed by your psychology as explained by Hume.
I suggest you explore this psychological effect in detail, i.e. 'Know Thyself'.
You need to look at my proof first. If the mind is required for any process then you cannot have a process without mind. This, if there is no mind, means that you cannot have any emergence since there is no process.
You are merely making an assumption which is driven by desperate psychology as Hume had indicated. The details can be explained via evolutionary psychology. Check out Michael Shermer's 'Why People Believed in Weird Things'.
Instead of speculating there is an entity called "mind" [ontological], it is more reliable to base my point on empirical evidences of human mental actions in relation to the brain, the whole person, the the whole environment and whole universe.
At present, psychology has a good grasp of "what is mind" psychologically and many mental problems can be resolved with what we understand 'what is mind' with medicines, various treatments and preventive measures. There is no need for psychologists and psychiatrists to search of the entity called mind within the brain of the person.
Why the majority seek to establish what is exactly mind in substance and entity wise is due to some inefficient psychological drives emerging from an existential crisis.
If this existential crisis is managed and modulated the person would not be bother and driven to search for an illusory mind-in-substance and mind-as-entity.
Note Buddhism has successfully introduce a solution to manage and modulate the existential crisis. This is why Buddhism do not accept there is a mind as an independent entity.