In what sense is Descartes's dualism wrong?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Gary Childress
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: In what sense is Descartes's dualism wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:25 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:23 pm Or conversely, did you murder your computer last night if you turned it off?
No! I just put it to sleep. All of its memories are in tact.

You know that data on your hard drive survives reboots, right?
OK. Fair enough. Have you ever erased a hard drive and then thrown a computer away, therefore murdering it?
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:25 pm If you kill a human, are you simply erasing their hard drive? Why not answer it?
If you kill a human you kill a human.
If you kill a computer you kill a computer.

Some humans are computers, so it could be said that if you kill a human you are also killing a computer.
Some computer are also human, so it could also be said that if you kill a computer you are also killing a human.

I suspect those aren't the answers your loaded question was designed to produce?
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: In what sense is Descartes's dualism wrong?

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:26 pm OK. Fair enough. Have you ever erased a hard drive and then thrown a computer away, therefore murdering it?
What is the intent of your loaded questions?
Gary Childress
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:28 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:25 pm If you kill a human, are you simply erasing their hard drive? Why not answer it?
If you kill a human you kill a human.
If you kill a computer you kill a computer.

Some humans are computers, so it could be said that if you kill a human you are also killing a computer.
Some computer are also human, so it could also be said that if you kill a computer you are also killing a human.
Which humans are computers? Which computers are human?
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:29 pm Which humans are computers? Which computers are human?
ALL humans are computers.
Not all computers are humans.

I am getting the sense that I've triggered you somewhat...
Gary Childress
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:29 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:29 pm Which humans are computers? Which computers are human?
ALL humans are computers.
Not all computers are humans.
But you just said some humans are computers, not all. Did you change your mind?
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:30 pm But you just said some humans are computers, not all. Did you change your mind?
What if I did?

I change my mind and I contradict myself quite often.

That's what computation is - the manipulation of matter.

Changing my mind is changing matter.
Gary Childress
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:30 pm But you just said some humans are computers, not all. Did you change your mind?
What if I did?

I change my mind and I contradict myself quite often.

That's what computation is - the manipulation of matter.

Changing my mind is changing matter.
We're done arguing then.
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:30 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:29 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:29 pm Which humans are computers? Which computers are human?
ALL humans are computers.
Not all computers are humans.
But you just said some humans are computers, not all. Did you change your mind?
I guess you are lining yourself to go "Ha! I gotcha!"

Too bad for you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-modifying_code
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:32 pm We're done arguing then.
Perhaps you missed the memo?

I don't argue. I communicate with other humans.

if you are here for an argument and have zero intent to communicate - say so. Don't waste other people's time under the guise of Sophistry.

if you choose to argue with me - you can't win. I say this openly and honestly.

But at least I am giving you a choice...
Last edited by Skepdick on Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 9926
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

"Changing my mind is changing matter."

Post by henry quirk »

Prove that statement.
Gary Childress
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:33 pm if you choose to argue with me - you can't win.
Well, you haven't won either so we seem to be on par.
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "Changing my mind is changing matter."

Post by Skepdick »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:39 pm Prove that statement.
What would you accept as proof?

Computation is the manipulation of information/matter. A Stanford computer science will confirm this for you around 20 seconds into this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5WodTppevo

Your brain/mind is a computer. Changing your mind is the same as "modifying your own software" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-modifying_code ).

The act of "changing your mind" is manipulates the physical state of your brain. Because that's what computation is!
Skepdick
Posts: 5686
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:44 pm Well, you haven't won either so we seem to be on par.
My goal was never winning though?

If somebody here is disappointed for "not having won" - it's only you.

In that regard, we are certainly "not on par"...
Gary Childress
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: "How does this vaporous, ethereal thing, the mind, cause a neuron to emit a neurotransmitter that causes the arm to

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:45 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:44 pm Well, you haven't won either so we seem to be on par.
My goal was never to "win".

Not having won only bothers you.

In that regard - you certainly lose. I am indifferent.
Of course, you're not conscious. Where's your on/off switch, Mr. bot.
Post Reply