The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by Dontaskme »

Can the perceiving mind really know the absolute truth of reality?

I personally say NO because a perceived thing is by nature dynamic and forever changing, therefore cannot be an absolute truth.

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Lacewing
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:41 pm Can the perceiving mind really know the absolute truth of reality?

I personally say NO because a perceived thing is by nature dynamic and forever changing, therefore cannot be an absolute truth.
I don't think it's just a matter of perceiving. I don't think there is an "absolute truth of reality". Such a concept sounds like a human idea of something ultimately static... and for what purpose?
surreptitious57
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by surreptitious57 »

What is the absolute truth of reality ? It is essentially three separate but complementary things which are
reality is all there is - reality is eternal and so will always exist - reality is in a perpetual state of change
Can a mind understand such concepts ? Yes it can so it can indeed perceive the absolute truth of reality
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

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what's for lunch?

-Imp
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Dontaskme
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by Dontaskme »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:42 pm
I don't think it's just a matter of perceiving.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:42 pm I don't think there is an "absolute truth of reality".
Is a perception.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:42 pm Such a concept sounds like a human idea of something ultimately static... and for what purpose?
Also a perception.



The human idea of something is a perception perceived as a thing known in 'no-thing' That which is KNOWN aka a 'perceived thing' knows no thing - ''a perceiver'' cannot be perceived by the 'perceived thing' it is perceiving...making all truth claims a fiction.


There is no purpose to reality. Purpose is created by the perceiving mind therefore another fictional / imagined idea.



All Questions appear to arise where there is the imagined sense of a separate self, which is just another idea.

In no way can the mind exist as an actual real thinking talking entity known as a separate human being, nor can it truly understand the reality which it artificially creates in theory or be able to know it's created theory by definition which is literally dead once set in definition. Therefore, whatever the mind defines as being ''what is'' cannot be the real way it is. It's simply the dead trying to mimic the live dynamic ever-changing flux of reality, an impossibility.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

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Impenitent wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:40 pm what's for lunch?

-Imp
You are!
Walker
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

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Where Do We Come From?
What Are We?
Where Are We Going?

https://www.gauguingallery.com/where-do ... -from.aspx
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Dontaskme
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

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surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:58 pm What is the absolute truth of reality ? It is essentially three separate but complementary things which are
reality is all there is - reality is eternal and so will always exist - reality is in a perpetual state of change
Can a mind understand such concepts ? Yes it can so it can indeed perceive the absolute truth of reality

The mind is a 'perceived thing' known by the absolute not by the mind thing itself, in the same sense a tree cannot know it is a tree in that a tree is a perceived known thing of the absolute that CANNOT be perceived by what it is perceiving.
Things known know nothing of the absolute in which they are KNOWN because a thing known is a conceptual relative idea already couched within the absolute THAT CANNOT be known by the mind thing.

No thing knows this.


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surreptitious57
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by surreptitious57 »

A tree cannot know that it is a tree because it has no self awareness
A mind can know that it is a mind because it does have self awareness

A tree and a mind are both a part of reality and so some of it is self aware and some of it is not self aware
It makes no difference to reality itself as it will always exist even though it is in a perpetual state of change

What exists within minds as a conceptual framework to explain reality may be true or it may be false
This is because not all minds think the same but all thoughts occurring within them are a part of reality

Minds cannot fully understand reality in an absolute sense including minds who disagree with this
For how can a mind understand anything once it no longer exists because that is simply not possible

When multiple minds disagree about reality with each other then they cannot all be right and maybe none of them are
All minds experience reality but they may interpret it very differently to each other but that should not be a problem

Minds have free will so disagreement will be inevitable but that in and of itself can be accommodated

Some minds do not accept they are minds while others claim everything is an illusion
Others claim there are no minds as such only a singular Mind or Gods Eye perspective

The mind typing these words is only passing through so is slowly learning to let go because its existence is only temporary
Other minds may want to ask some questions but giving answers is not as important to this mind as just letting things be

Other minds seem to truly know what reality is but as they contradict each other they cannot all be right from a logical perspective
This mind no longer wastes mental energy on trying to convince itself or other minds of anything where that cannot be demonstrated

Does Awareness exist ? It does not know - Does Mind / God exist ? It does not know - So what does it know ?
It knows that reality / existence is all there is and thinks that it is eternal and in a perpetual state of change

Does it matter to this mind if it is wrong ? No because its existence is merely temporary and so it does not matter in the grand scheme of things
This mind [ for that is how it self identifies ] is only passing through so being right or wrong ultimately has zero lasting effect whatever it thinks
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

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surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:37 am A tree cannot know that it is a tree because it has no self awareness
And yet something knows the concept tree.

So every named thing (concept) is an imagined known by what can never be known by the thing IT knows.

This IT is the only knowing there is.

A concept as in the concept tree has no concept of itself because it does not exist spearate from the knower,which cannot be named, or turned into a known thing, and yet does not exist unless KNOWN

Concepts are not SEEN OR SEEN THINGS...they are only KNOWN by that which is never seen. ~For the seen is the seeing.

There is no self-aware brain either. No brain knows of it's existence just like the tree, the brain exists purely as an idea, an imagined thing KNOWN.

By the only knowing there is which is consciousness. Consciousness does not show up on an image seen, it does not have to show up to it's own show because it's the only show in town, the show that never showed.

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surreptitious57
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by surreptitious57 »

If a tree was a brain then it would have self awareness because brains can think for themselves
So the brain cannot be merely a concept because that would mean they did not exist in reality
But when brains cease to exist there will be no concepts as they cannot exist outside of brains
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by Dontaskme »

surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:08 pm If a tree was a brain then it would have self awareness because brains can think for themselves
Brain is a concept known - known by no conceptual known thing.

Do you agree or disagree?


surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:08 pmSo the brain cannot be merely a concept because that would mean they did not exist in reality
But that statement is knowledge, it's the knowledge of the concept labeled brain. So brain is a concept known. The question is: what knows the concept? and can a concept known as BRAIN know it's a concept ? CAN a brain know it's a brain?

Can that which is already knowing then know what it is that is knowing this knowing without turning it into a concept ? ...here we are back to the problem of the tree knowing it is a tree again, see the dilemma?

The only knowing there is - is Consciousness. Consciousness cannot know it is Consciousness because it's already being the knowing.
And that is what is meant by non-dual Consciousness. If Consciousness knew it was Consciousness it would have to split itself in two into knower and known, which is impossible for there is nothing outside of Consciousness, it's a boundless arena unto itself only.

surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:08 pmBut when brains cease to exist there will be no concepts as they cannot exist outside of brains
This is just another perception - in what is this peception taking place?

A brain is a concept, when a concept ceases to exist then that doesn't mean it's not still here, can a known concept ever not be a known concept? do you see the dilemma?

The consciousness in which concepts are known never appears disappears or reappears because it's infinity itself.

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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Awareness may exist but I have never experienced it and so I cannot be certain that it is true
But I know that I exist and not merely as a concept so that is the foundation of my knowledge
And when I can no longer think then I will no longer be and as I already accept this it is not a problem
As I am only passing through it does not matter to me what I am since my existence is only temporary
Last edited by surreptitious57 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Lacewing
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by Lacewing »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:59 am Can the perceiving mind really know the absolute truth of reality?
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:42 pm
I don't think it's just a matter of perceiving.

I don't think there is an "absolute truth of reality".
Is a perception.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:42 pm Such a concept sounds like a human idea of something ultimately static... and for what purpose?
Also a perception.
Your phrase (that I've underlined) seems to be saying that there IS such a thing?

That's what I was responding to. Did you mean your phrasing in the sense of: if there WERE such a thing?
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Re: The basic question of all philosophy is ?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Awareness may exist but I have never experienced it and so I cannot be certain that it is true
But I know that I exist and not merely as a concept so that is the foundation of my knowledge

I think therefore I am

And when I can no longer think then I will no longer be and as I already accept this it is not a problem
As I am only passing through it does not matter to me what I am since my existence is only temporary
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