Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

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Q: How long does it take a man to be reborn after death? Is it immediately after death or some time later?

Ramana Maharshi: You do not know what you were before birth, yet you want to know what you will be after death. Do you know what you are now?
Birth and rebirth pertain to the body. You are identifying the Self with the body. It is a wrong identification. You believe that the body has been born and will die, and confound the phenomena relating to the body with the Self. Know your real being and these questions will not arise.
Births and rebirths are mentioned only to make you investigate the question and find out that there are neither births nor rebirths. They relate to the body and not to the Self. Know the Self and don't be perturbed by doubts.
-----
Q: Do not one's actions affect the person in later births?

Ramana Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact is that there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born think of death and palliatives for it.
-----
Q: What happens to a person after death?

Ramana Maharshi: Engage yourself in the living present. The future will take care of itself. Do not worry about the future. The state before creation and the process of creation are dealt with in the scriptures in order that you may know the present. Because you say you are born, therefore they say, yes, and add that God created you.
But do you see God or anything else in your sleep? If God is real, why does he not shine forth in your sleep also? You always are, you are the same now as you were in sleep. You are not different from that one in sleep. But why should there be differences in the feelings or experiences of the two states?
Did you ask, while asleep, questions regarding your birth? Did you then ask 'Where do I go after death?' Why think of all these questions now in the waking state? Let what is born think of its birth and the remedy, its cause and ultimate results.


Sri Ramana Maharshi
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:11 am Q: How long does it take a man to be reborn after death? Is it immediately after death or some time later?

Ramana Maharshi: You do not know what you were before birth, yet you want to know what you will be after death. Do you know what you are now?
Birth and rebirth pertain to the body. You are identifying the Self with the body. It is a wrong identification. You believe that the body has been born and will die, and confound the phenomena relating to the body with the Self. Know your real being and these questions will not arise.
Births and rebirths are mentioned only to make you investigate the question and find out that there are neither births nor rebirths. They relate to the body and not to the Self. Know the Self and don't be perturbed by doubts.
-----
Q: Do not one's actions affect the person in later births?
A person, literally, could not have a later birth.

A 'person' is just the non visible 'thoughts and emotions' within a human body. A person comes to exist only when there is a human body experiencing, and the person stops forming when the human body stops breathing and stops pumping blood. When the human body stops experiencing, then the thoughts and feeling stops forming. Obviously, the same person could not have a later birth. Therefore, the actions of one human body, while it is breathing and experiencing, has absolutely NO effect on the person in later birth because there is NO person that could be later born, nor re-birthed, anyway. The thoughts and feelings within a human body will ever only exist in that human body.

The actions of a human body however do have an effect on the 'life' that "other" human bodies will experience, and thus then also have an effect on "other" persons.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:11 am Ramana Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact is that there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born think of death and palliatives for it.
-----
Q: What happens to a person after death?
A 'person', which is just the 'thoughts and internal feelings', within a human body, does not die. There is NO death for people, so the question, "What happens to a person after death?", is misleading.

But what happens to a person after the the body stops breathing, pumping blood, and experiencing is that person stops forming and changing.

The person who was in a breathing human body stops forming and changing when that body stops pumping blood and experiencing, but the thinking and feeling person that was being expressed in words, spoken and written, from that body, and shown in the behaviors of the body, remain 'living', in other bodies.

The person always exists in one way or another here in this one and only place known as Life, Existence, or the Universe.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:11 am Ramana Maharshi: Engage yourself in the living present. The future will take care of itself. Do not worry about the future. The state before creation and the process of creation are dealt with in the scriptures in order that you may know the present. Because you say you are born, therefore they say, yes, and add that God created you.
But do you see God or anything else in your sleep? If God is real, why does he not shine forth in your sleep also? You always are, you are the same now as you were in sleep. You are not different from that one in sleep. But why should there be differences in the feelings or experiences of the two states?
Did you ask, while asleep, questions regarding your birth? Did you then ask 'Where do I go after death?' Why think of all these questions now in the waking state? Let what is born think of its birth and the remedy, its cause and ultimate results.


Sri Ramana Maharshi
surreptitious57
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by surreptitious57 »

Death is simply when the body stops functioning though it still exists as a body . There is however ultimately no such thing as death because it is simply a transformation from one state to another . The sub atomic particles your body is made from still carry on existing long after your death and actually have a life span greater than the known age of the Universe . Indeed in one sense you are as old as the Universe itself because with out the Big Bang you would not be here at all because everything that made you originated from there or even beyond to an infinite past in time
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

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surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:36 pm Death is simply when the body stops functioning though it still exists as a body .
But the body never stops functioning. The body is always just changing, causing and creating. Physicality is just One body. Physicality is just One thing changing in shape and form ALWAYS, and some might say in ALL WAYS.

A human body is just a part of this consistent-change.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:36 pmThere is however ultimately no such thing as death because it is simply a transformation from one state to another .
So 'you' and 'I' agree here. That is; There actually is NO death.

"death" is just a term used by human beings to explain when the human body stops breathing and stops pumping blood. "death" is just another one of those multitude of improper, incorrect, and just plain WRONG terms that human beings use.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:36 pmThe sub atomic particles your body is made from still carry on existing long after your death and actually have a life span greater than the known age of the Universe .
Four things here;

1. There is NO "your" body. There is a human body with a 'you', which is just a 'person', which is just the 'thoughts and emotions' within a human body.
2. There is NO "your" death. Just like there is not an actual ultimately "death" of the body there is also NO actual "death" of a 'you'.
3. How could there be a 'life span' greater than the known age of the Universe, which is ageless. The Universe is already KNOWN to be infinite.
4. There is no greater length than infinite.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:36 pmIndeed in one sense you are as old as the Universe itself because with out the Big Bang you would not be here at all because everything that made you originated from there or even beyond to an infinite past in time
Within one sentence 'you' are able to contradict "yourself".

'you' are NEVER as old as the Universe as 'you' only came to exist some insignificant time ago.
What is called a "big bang" is NOT the only reason WHY 'you' are, somewhat, conscious now. Absolutely every thing prior to that body, which 'you' are in, come to exist in human body form including absolutely everything that what was prior to that "bang" is WHY 'you' are here now.

The so called "big bang" has no more significance nor importance to 'you' being here than any other event or occurrence.

Just because some thing is wrongly termed "big bang" this does NOT make it any more importance than absolutely any thing else. That "bang" is just one of countless other "bangs" that are continually happening and occurring in the Universe.
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by surreptitious57 »


All excellent points that you have made there so I will try to accommodate them into my world view
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

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surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:09 pm
All excellent points that you have made there so I will try to accommodate them into my world view
Thanks, but if you will (have to) 'try' to accommodate those points into your world view, then that hints to one of them, or both my points and your world view, are wrong and/or incorrect.

Either, points and world views fit in together very simply and very easily or they do not. If they do not fit together perfectly and easily and so there is some 'trying' needed to accommodate either of them, then that is a strong sign that one of them is just not right.

Now, to find out which one is not just right, or completely wrong, this just takes the right kind of questioning, and absolute Honesty in answering, from a Truly OPEN and objective perspective, with absolutely NO fear of being judged, punished, ridiculed or put down.

When there is no more 'trying' and EVERY thing is just accommodating each other naturally and easily, and they ALL fit together perfectly, and very simply, then you will KNOW, for SURE, that 'you' are on the right track and path in Life. The Knowledge of right and wrong comes to light, and the actual Truth of things just fall into place in front of you also, leading you down the right course in Life to Creating and living the True life that 'you' have REALLY wanted to live in anyway.
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by surreptitious57 »

I am an eternal work in progress and so perfect harmony can never be achieved but I still do what I can
Even though at my time in life it is not so much about having a world view but rather learning to let go
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Dontaskme »

Paul the Apostle in his letter to the Galatians/ wrote...

Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me,” he’s referring to a radical shift in his life’s orientation, where his ‘old self’ has died (crucifixion) and a new one has emerged (resurrection). For some people like him, this rebirth happens suddenly after being hit with a lighting insight (satori).

Many people understand rebirth literally (as transmigration from life to life), we can also see it as a description of the reality that we are constantly changing moment to moment and day to day.
Perhaps we’d be better off talking about rebirthing instead, not as a one-time event, but as continual process.

In other words no thing (Character) ever reincarnated, there is only THIS infinite process of change within the changeless ONE
God playing every character simultaneously NOW.
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:21 am Paul the Apostle in his letter to the Galatians/ wrote...

Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me,” he’s referring to a radical shift in his life’s orientation, where his ‘old self’ has died (crucifixion) and a new one has emerged (resurrection). For some people like him, this rebirth happens suddenly after being hit with a lighting insight (satori).

Many people understand rebirth literally (as transmigration from life to life), we can also see it as a description of the reality that we are constantly changing moment to moment and day to day.
Perhaps we’d be better off talking about rebirthing instead, not as a one-time event, but as continual process.
As I say, thee Universe is in constant-change ALWAYS HERE-NOW.

The one Everything is changing in shape, way, and form continually.
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:21 amIn other words no thing (Character) ever reincarnated, there is only THIS infinite process of change within the changeless ONE
God playing every character simultaneously NOW.
The changeless One is just the Universe, which can not change from being in a continual process of change. Creation, Itself, is just the process of evolution in an always action - re-action process.

God, in the visible sense, is just the physical Universe in the One constant (changeless) of continually changing in shape and form (Creating the evolving Character, God).
God, in the non visible sense, is just the Mind in the One constant (changeless) of continually being Open, and thus able to manipulate the physical things into any way, shape and form that that One wishes (Evolving the creating Character, God).

Every thing that the physical human body imagines, devises, invents, plans, designs, causes, and creates is because of a Open Mind - God.
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

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surreptitious57 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:47 am I am an eternal work in progress and so perfect harmony can never be achieved
I would never suggest some thing as being impossible, unless, of course, I had access to the whole of future, itself.

Also, unless one KNOWS, 100% for SURE, who 'I' am, then I would NOT say 'I' am some thing, or not some thing, YET.

For example, thee Truth might actually be; I am eternity progressively working, and not the other way around as 'you' have purported here.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:47 ambut I still do what I can
Okay. But also sometimes 'you' can actually do far more than 'you' envision.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:47 amEven though at my time in life it is not so much about having a world view but rather learning to let go
How about just 'letting go', instead of learning how to 'let go'? For example, how about just 'letting go' for good, absolutely EVERY thing that does not align with what has already been proven to be true?

What happens if, and when, you do that?
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Age »

Double post.
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Walker »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:11 am Q: How long does it take a man to be reborn after death? Is it immediately after death or some time later?

Ramana Maharshi: You do not know what you were before birth, yet you want to know what you will be after death. Do you know what you are now?
Birth and rebirth pertain to the body. You are identifying the Self with the body. It is a wrong identification. You believe that the body has been born and will die, and confound the phenomena relating to the body with the Self. Know your real being and these questions will not arise.
Births and rebirths are mentioned only to make you investigate the question and find out that there are neither births nor rebirths. They relate to the body and not to the Self. Know the Self and don't be perturbed by doubts.
-----
Q: Do not one's actions affect the person in later births?

Ramana Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact is that there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born think of death and palliatives for it.
-----
Q: What happens to a person after death?

Ramana Maharshi: Engage yourself in the living present. The future will take care of itself. Do not worry about the future. The state before creation and the process of creation are dealt with in the scriptures in order that you may know the present. Because you say you are born, therefore they say, yes, and add that God created you.
But do you see God or anything else in your sleep? If God is real, why does he not shine forth in your sleep also? You always are, you are the same now as you were in sleep. You are not different from that one in sleep. But why should there be differences in the feelings or experiences of the two states?
Did you ask, while asleep, questions regarding your birth? Did you then ask 'Where do I go after death?' Why think of all these questions now in the waking state? Let what is born think of its birth and the remedy, its cause and ultimate results.


Sri Ramana Maharshi
“As a concession to those who were unable to assimilate the implications of this truth, Sri Ramana would sometimes admit that reincarnation existed.”
- David Godman
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:11 am Q: How long does it take a man to be reborn after death? Is it immediately after death or some time later?

Ramana Maharshi: You do not know what you were before birth, yet you want to know what you will be after death. Do you know what you are now?
Birth and rebirth pertain to the body. You are identifying the Self with the body. It is a wrong identification. You believe that the body has been born and will die, and confound the phenomena relating to the body with the Self. Know your real being and these questions will not arise.
Births and rebirths are mentioned only to make you investigate the question and find out that there are neither births nor rebirths. They relate to the body and not to the Self. Know the Self and don't be perturbed by doubts.
-----
Q: Do not one's actions affect the person in later births?

Ramana Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact is that there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born think of death and palliatives for it.
-----
Q: What happens to a person after death?

Ramana Maharshi: Engage yourself in the living present. The future will take care of itself. Do not worry about the future. The state before creation and the process of creation are dealt with in the scriptures in order that you may know the present. Because you say you are born, therefore they say, yes, and add that God created you.
But do you see God or anything else in your sleep? If God is real, why does he not shine forth in your sleep also? You always are, you are the same now as you were in sleep. You are not different from that one in sleep. But why should there be differences in the feelings or experiences of the two states?
Did you ask, while asleep, questions regarding your birth? Did you then ask 'Where do I go after death?' Why think of all these questions now in the waking state? Let what is born think of its birth and the remedy, its cause and ultimate results.


Sri Ramana Maharshi
I think it is like this. This world is the lower world. You comes to this world after you give up life in the higher worlds. Why we leave higher worlds. Because we get used to things after a while. So we forget and come to this world so we can have a fresh life when everything looks new.
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Impenitent »

reincarnations don't smell as nice as pink carnations...

maybe bovines have other opinions...

-Imp
Walker
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Re: Reincarnation. Who or what would reincarnate? (explained)

Post by Walker »

Impenitent wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:16 pm reincarnations don't smell as nice as pink carnations...

maybe bovines have other opinions...

-Imp
:lol:

Opining bovining.

*

Sri Ramana Maharshi had a favourite cow, named Lakshmi.

From the same dialogue as the OP:

Q: Is the individual capable of spiritual progress in an animal body?

A: Not impossible, though it is exceedingly rare. It is not true that birth as a man is necessarily the highest, and that one must attain realization only from being a man. Even an animal can attain Self-realisation.
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