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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:48 pm
by SteveKlinko
Dimebag wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am Self driving cars are not yet at the level of human perception and have a long way to go. Road markings must be universal or they can’t tell where the lane is, some can’t see humans waiting at road crossings - Uber failed here. AI development’s greatest Achilles heel is the over confidence and lack of humility within those making it. They see human perception as an engineering problem, but it is firstly a philosophical and neuroscience problem. Understand first, then create.
The hype about Self Driving Cars goes beyond Overconfidence and into the realm of outright Fraud. Things like Rain, Snow, Nighttime, Detours, Hand Signals from Cops, etc. are not workable in any Generalized way yet. Maybe they can make it work in various special situations but I don't think there will be Generalized Self Driving Cars in the lifetime of anyone alive today.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pm
by Skepdick
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:40 pm
by Skepdick
Dimebag wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am Self driving cars are not yet at the level of human perception and have a long way to go.
How long?
Dimebag wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am Road markings must be universal or they can’t tell where the lane is
You mean like humans get confused by inconsistent/ambiguous road signs?
Or how humans take a while to unlearn habits when going from a left-hand-drive to a right-hand-drive system/vehicle?
Dimebag wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am some can’t see humans waiting at road crossings - Uber failed here.
You mean like how humans have inattentional blindness, night blindness and blind spots in our limited field of view which often the cause of accidents?
Dimebag wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am AI development’s greatest Achilles heel is the over confidence and lack of humility within those making it.
AI skeptics' greatest Achilles heel is the under confidence and excessive pride in human irreplaceability.
Dimebag wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am They see human perception as an engineering problem, but it is firstly a philosophical and neuroscience problem. Understand first, then create.
You have this backwards. There are no such things as "philosophical problems". Everything is an engineering problem. Towards the goal of inventing AI having neuroscientific "understanding" of the brain is worth nothing if you can't teach this 'knowledge' to a machine.

Long after we have AI that does all the mundane tasks humans hate doing, philosophers will continue to philosophize whether it is conscious or not.

Neither the world, nor engineers will actually care about the answer.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm
by SteveKlinko
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?
It's not always as simple as you would like it. The Self Driving Car itself does not have Consciousness but the Programmers and Engineers that designed the Software sure do have Consciousness. It is the Software that manifests the Intelligence that the Conscious Designers created. You have to read and remember all the facts here.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:22 pm
by Skepdick
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm The Self Driving Car itself does not have Consciousness
Steve, if manouvering intelligently requires consciousness, how can an unconscious robot manouvre intelligently?

In science - this is called falsification. You theory is junk.
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm but the Programmers and Engineers that designed the Software sure do have Consciousness. It is the Software that manifests the Intelligence that the Conscious Designers created. You have to read and remember all the facts here.
Here are the facts, Steve.

There was a point in your life when you didn't know how to drive a car. Somebody had to teach you how to do it.
There was a point in the robot's life it didn't know how to drive a car either. The programmers taught it how to do it.

Somebody (we call them 'driving instructors') installed the "how to drive a car" software (knowledge) in your head. Still, you were pretty terrible at first, Steve. The instructor only gave you the basics - once you passed the driving test, you were allowed to improve your driving skills (develop your own knowledge) on public roads.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:16 pm
by commonsense
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?
If there is a situation in which intelligent maneuvering occurs—“Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering”—without involving Consciousness—“but no Consciousness is involved,” then it follows that consciousness is not always required.

If consciousness is not always required, it is not required.

If consciousness is not required, then the OP’s question has been answered—no—thus overriding the earlier statement to the contrary.

However, if consciousness is not required in all situations, this does not prove that a machine doesn’t possess consciousness.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
by bahman
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm
Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
What is the need for any idea when any decision is made unconsciously? That is a valid question since any idea is a conscious phenomenon. Motion, of course, needs consciousness. I have an argument for that.
When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 pm
by bahman
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:35 pm Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
I guess you are still making up your mind on this, eh?
Yeah. You got it.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm
by SteveKlinko
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:22 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm The Self Driving Car itself does not have Consciousness
Steve, if manouvering intelligently requires consciousness, how can an unconscious robot manouvre intelligently?

In science - this is called falsification. You theory is junk.
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm but the Programmers and Engineers that designed the Software sure do have Consciousness. It is the Software that manifests the Intelligence that the Conscious Designers created. You have to read and remember all the facts here.
Here are the facts, Steve.

There was a point in your life when you didn't know how to drive a car. Somebody had to teach you how to do it.
There was a point in the robot's life it didn't know how to drive a car either. The programmers taught it how to do it.

Somebody (we call them 'driving instructors') installed the "how to drive a car" software (knowledge) in your head. Still, you were pretty terrible at first, Steve. The instructor only gave you the basics - once you passed the driving test, you were allowed to improve your driving skills (develop your own knowledge) on public roads.
The programmers did not Teach the Car how to do anything, rather they Infused the Car with the algorithms to drive. You can't really say that the Car Knows how to drive anymore than you can say your Thermostat in your home knows how to keep the temperature regulated.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pm
by SteveKlinko
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm
What is the need for any idea when any decision is made unconsciously? That is a valid question since any idea is a conscious phenomenon. Motion, of course, needs consciousness. I have an argument for that.
When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.
I'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:05 pm
by bahman
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pm
When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.
I'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?
Think of a billiard ball moving on the table from one position to another. This is a change.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:20 pm
by commonsense
bahman wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:05 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.
I'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?
Think of a billiard ball moving on the table from one position to another. This is a change.
Wouldn’t a melting ice cube be a better example? After all, the billiard ball per se is unchanged even though its location in space has changed. Or is it fair to say that it’s location is one of the attributes that belong to it, and therefore it has changed its state as well?

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:55 pm
by SteveKlinko
bahman wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:05 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:21 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 pm
Any motion requires consciousness whether it is intelligent or not. My argument: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist since there would be no change, therefore, A has to vanishes before a B emerges. There is however nothing when A vanishes and nothing cannot possibly turn into B, therefore, there must exist a conscious being, mind, which experiences A and causes B.
I'm not quite following this. Let me ask: What kind of change in the system are you referring to?
Think of a billiard ball moving on the table from one position to another. This is a change.
So then you are looking at reality as being a series of freeze frames. The frame at State A appears then disappears and then the frame at State B appears and disappears etc. It's a Speculation that could be true. Nobody knows. Seems easier to just assume continuous movement without all the appearing and disappearing.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:48 am
by Skepdick
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm The programmers did not Teach the Car how to do anything, rather they Infused the Car with the algorithms to drive.
The driving instructors didn't teach you how to do anything. Rather they infused you with the algorithms to drive.
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm You can't really say that the Car Knows how to drive anymore than you can say your Thermostat in your home knows how to keep the temperature regulated.
Of course I can say it. I am saying it.

If you can drive a car, then I can say "Steve knows how to drive a car".
If a robot can drive a car, then surely we can the same thing. "The AI knows how to drive a car"

An algorithm is the same thing as know-how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-how

Transferring know-how from the driving instructor's head into yours it's "teaching".
Transferring know-how from the programmer's head into the computer's memory - it's also teaching.

Re: Do we need consciousness?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:51 pm
by SteveKlinko
Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:48 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm The programmers did not Teach the Car how to do anything, rather they Infused the Car with the algorithms to drive.
The driving instructors didn't teach you how to do anything. Rather they infused you with the algorithms to drive.
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm You can't really say that the Car Knows how to drive anymore than you can say your Thermostat in your home knows how to keep the temperature regulated.
Of course I can say it. I am saying it.

If you can drive a car, then I can say "Steve knows how to drive a car".
If a robot can drive a car, then surely we can the same thing. "The AI knows how to drive a car"

An algorithm is the same thing as know-how. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-how

Transferring know-how from the driving instructor's head into yours it's "teaching".
Transferring know-how from the programmer's head into the computer's memory - it's also teaching.
If you add a book to a Library does it mean that the Library has gotten Smarter with the knowledge and information from the book? Inanimate objects do not learn. Designers like to Anthropomorphize what Computers do but this is just a convention of Speech. Less technical people are fooled into believing that Computers are more like Humans than they are. Does the thermostat in your home "Know" how to keep the temperature regulated? Or is it actually something else when talking about Inanimate objects?