Do we need consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Skepdick »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:45 pm Technology is a projection of our values, nothing more or less.
Of all things that are endemic to humans - written/communicable language is the paragon for this.

The technology we call 'language' is the projection of the value we call 'determinism'.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Zelebg wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:43 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 pm The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world.
Robots and worms can move around in the world. You are talking about awareness without explaining why it needs to be accompanied by _subjective_ or 1st person experience, as opposed to just have signals and information computation without anything in there experiencing anything.
I said it. The Visual Experience contains a multitude of information that the Neural Activity alone can not provide. Your Brain would have to be as big as a Refrigerator to do with Neural Activity what the Conscious Visual Experience provides. Robots and Worms are irrelevant to this discussion. We are talking about the Human situation.
Last edited by SteveKlinko on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Zelebg wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:46 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 pm Electromagnetic Phenomena, Firing Neurons, the Red Experience, and the Number 00FF0000 are completely different kinds of Data.
Photon contains and transmits information. Neuron firing contain and tranmit information. Color variable in software contains information.

What does experience do with information?
The Redness Experience certainly is Information for the Conscious Mind.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:05 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:42 pm There are two sorts of minds: 1) Conscious and 2) Unconscious. The question is whether we even need conscious mind when the very important task like decision is made by unconscious mind (according to Libet's experiment).
Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing. To implement all the functionality of the Conscious Visual experience with only Neural Activity would probably require a Brain as big as a refrigerator.

Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience. It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.

The Conscious Mind concept can be viewed as a kind of Conscious Processor that takes the Conscious Light, Sound, Smell, Taste, and Touch Experiences as Input Data to help it survive in the world. This is a very strange kind of Processing (although actually very familiar) and it is very different from the Processing that Computers can do. The Processing that the Conscious Mind does is also very different than the Neural Processing that the Brain does. Let's talk about the Color Red. In the Physical World we know that Red Light is an oscillating Electromagnetic phenomenon with a particular wavelength associated with it. In the Brain Red is the coordinated Firing of groups of specific Neurons. In the Conscious Mind Red is an Experience. In Computers Red is usually represented as the hex number 00FF0000 stored in a memory location. Electromagnetic Phenomena, Firing Neurons, the Red Experience, and the Number 00FF0000 are completely different kinds of Data.
How do you know that consciousness is required for the motion of an agent? As I mentioned any decision is made by unconscious mind, therefore, any motion is the result of the unconscious activity (like sleepwalking).
Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
What is the relationship, similarity and difference between consciousness and intelligence?

Would you say that all intelligent entities are conscious?
Would you say that all conscious entities are intelligent?
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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Skepdick wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
What is the relationship, similarity and difference between consciousness and intelligence?

Would you say that all intelligent entities are conscious?
Would you say that all conscious entities are intelligent?
Consciousness has many aspects to consider but I concentrate on Conscious Sensory experiences. Any animal that has a Conscious Sensory experience is Conscious from my way of thinking. It doesn't involve any kind of self awareness. Intelligence is complicated and is certainly a different thing than Sensory Experience. Don't have answers for the last two questions. It depends on what is included in the category of Intelligent Entities and the category of Conscious Entities.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:25 pm blah ...blah ...blah
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:25 pm I don't have answers for the last two questions. It depends on what is included in the category of Intelligent Entities and the category of Conscious Entities.
I don't understand.

You made the English claim "Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.".

Therefore it's reasonable to conclude that the categories of "consciousness" and "intelligence" exist in your head (else you wouldn't be using those words).

If the categories exist in your head, how can you not have answers to my questions? Do the two categories (as they exist in your head) intersect or not? Introspect and answer.
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bahman
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:05 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 pm

Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing. To implement all the functionality of the Conscious Visual experience with only Neural Activity would probably require a Brain as big as a refrigerator.

Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience. It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.

The Conscious Mind concept can be viewed as a kind of Conscious Processor that takes the Conscious Light, Sound, Smell, Taste, and Touch Experiences as Input Data to help it survive in the world. This is a very strange kind of Processing (although actually very familiar) and it is very different from the Processing that Computers can do. The Processing that the Conscious Mind does is also very different than the Neural Processing that the Brain does. Let's talk about the Color Red. In the Physical World we know that Red Light is an oscillating Electromagnetic phenomenon with a particular wavelength associated with it. In the Brain Red is the coordinated Firing of groups of specific Neurons. In the Conscious Mind Red is an Experience. In Computers Red is usually represented as the hex number 00FF0000 stored in a memory location. Electromagnetic Phenomena, Firing Neurons, the Red Experience, and the Number 00FF0000 are completely different kinds of Data.
How do you know that consciousness is required for the motion of an agent? As I mentioned any decision is made by unconscious mind, therefore, any motion is the result of the unconscious activity (like sleepwalking).
Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
What is the need for any idea when any decision is made unconsciously? That is a valid question since any idea is a conscious phenomenon. Motion, of course, needs consciousness. I have an argument for that.
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bahman
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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Dimebag wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:24 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:01 am I think that consciousness is the ability (ability to experience) of the mind so mind through consciousness can actively affect reality. I was mentioning that in materialism (probably your view), consciousness is the result of matter movement. So consciousness is the by-product of matter activity and it cannot affect matter since matter itself moves according to laws of nature. Moreover, even if we accept that consciousness can play a role in reality then there could be tension in the motion of a person since his consciousness could say to go this way and laws of nature say to go that way. Moreover, how experience which is a subjective thing can possibly affect reality which is objective!?
What is mind to you?
Mind to me is essence of any being/thing with the ability to experience, decide and cause.
Dimebag wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:24 pm My view is that, consciousness emerges from specific activity of the brain. It could be materialism, however, materialism doesn’t always capture the way things emerge from complexity, so you could say I am a complex systems emergentist. There is a stigma associated with materialism that it is interested only in the most fundamental, which is physics, however, we don’t use physics to understand biology, we need chemistry which is a layer of complexity which emerges from physics, and then biology then emerges from the complexity of organic chemistry. Our biology consists of a system of complexity we call genetics. From this layer of complexity, proteins emerge, which are the building blocks of organisms, and greater structures of the body are created. Then we have the nervous system, which is the basis for signalling, and is good enough to produce reflexes to stimuli.

But in order to produce more novel behaviour, another layer of complexity must be built, the brain, an extension of the nervous system, which senses signals from the body and creates worlds from signals from sense organs. These worlds are the brains ability to break up signals and make some sense of them, interpreting what is useful to the organism. It allows learning as without this inner world, there is only reaction. More complex behaviour is possible now that this world of representation. Then we have the cortex which is literally a crumpled up sheet or layer existing on top of the lower brain, this is where this inner world is created. The cortex also allows concepts based on the inner world, which can be used for internal cognition, or even communicated externally.

On top of all this, awareness sits, observing the inner world. Sometimes it is engrossed in it, and is along for the ride, watching as stimulus leads to action, and execution of complex learned behaviours, ensuring all goes to plan and adjusting when necessary.

So from fundamental physics we have at minimum, nine levels of complexity, sitting atop one another. Each level can be understood based on its own frame of reference, only requiring the explanation of how its fundamental constituents combine to produce this new emergent layer with its own rules theories to be applied.

I am sure there are several layers of emergence from brain to consciousness which are either not yet understood, or not even yet described by science.
A conscious being/thing experiences stuff. What you are saying is simply that consciousness intrinsically emerges from physics. The biology is intrinsically rooted in physics because of the chemistry does too. Any physical thing however by definition is unconscious in materialism. There is no need for consciousness. The staff moves on its own. What is the need for experience when any decision is made unconsciously?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:10 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:45 pm Technology is a projection of our values, nothing more or less.
Of all things that are endemic to humans - written/communicable language is the paragon for this.

The technology we call 'language' is the projection of the value we call 'determinism'.
Determinism, cause and effect, is spontaneous and a causal as evidences by particles in a vaccuum or images coming from the subconsciousness.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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Skepdick wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:47 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:25 pm blah ...blah ...blah
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:25 pm I don't have answers for the last two questions. It depends on what is included in the category of Intelligent Entities and the category of Conscious Entities.
I don't understand.

You made the English claim "Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.".

Therefore it's reasonable to conclude that the categories of "consciousness" and "intelligence" exist in your head (else you wouldn't be using those words).

If the categories exist in your head, how can you not have answers to my questions? Do the two categories (as they exist in your head) intersect or not? Introspect and answer.
I don't know enough about Consciousness and Intelligence to have, what I would consider to be, solid answers for those last two questions. I think that a mouse probably has some sort of Sensory Consciousness, but it is not very Intelligent. Whereas a Computer can do some seemingly very Intelligent things, but I doubt that it is Conscious. So what do you think the answers are to these questions?
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:05 am
How do you know that consciousness is required for the motion of an agent? As I mentioned any decision is made by unconscious mind, therefore, any motion is the result of the unconscious activity (like sleepwalking).
Motion does not require Consciousness but intelligent maneuvering around in a complicated world sure does.
What is the need for any idea when any decision is made unconsciously? That is a valid question since any idea is a conscious phenomenon. Motion, of course, needs consciousness. I have an argument for that.
When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

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SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:50 pm I don't know enough about Consciousness and Intelligence to have, what I would consider to be, solid answers for those last two questions.
Don't be so modest. You know enough about consciousness and intelligence to have a solid answer to the question "Does intelligent maneuvering require consciousness?" (you answered 'yes').

That is all the knowledge necessary to answer this question: Does intelligence require consciousness?

Go ahead and answer it.
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pm When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
When a self-driving car does what a human does, only better, would you say that's 'intelligent maneuvering'?
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by Dimebag »

Self driving cars are not yet at the level of human perception and have a long way to go. Road markings must be universal or they can’t tell where the lane is, some can’t see humans waiting at road crossings - Uber failed here. AI development’s greatest Achilles heel is the over confidence and lack of humility within those making it. They see human perception as an engineering problem, but it is firstly a philosophical and neuroscience problem. Understand first, then create.
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Re: Do we need consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:14 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:50 pm I don't know enough about Consciousness and Intelligence to have, what I would consider to be, solid answers for those last two questions.
Don't be so modest. You know enough about consciousness and intelligence to have a solid answer to the question "Does intelligent maneuvering require consciousness?" (you answered 'yes').

That is all the knowledge necessary to answer this question: Does intelligence require consciousness?

Go ahead and answer it.
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:53 pm When a Venus Flytrap snaps down and catches a fly there is a lot of Motion but I'm guessing very little Consciousness involved in that action.
When a self-driving car does what a human does, only better, would you say that's 'intelligent maneuvering'?
Self Driving Cars are doing Intelligent Maneuvering, but no Consciousness is involved.
I don't think you can really attribute the Intelligent Maneuvering to the Car itself, but rather it should be attributed to the Programmers and Engineers that designed the system. It is their Intelligence manifesting as the actions of the Car. The Computers and Processors in the Car are not Intelligent without the Software.
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