A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Skepdick »

Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am Recursion is completely different concept in 'Recursion theory' than in 'recursive function'.
It really isn't. The Chomsky Hierarchy stops at the Turing machine. Type 0 grammars. a.k.a Recursively enumerable languages.

It corresponds to the RE (recursively enumerable) complexity class ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_(complexity) ).
If you have some conception of recursion that goes beyond ALL complexity, and beyond Turing machines - go ahead and publish your work.

Either you have discovered a new idea, or you are ignorant of your own ignorance.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am Clearly then you understand neither. What the hell are you doing, who are you trying to fool? Fascinating.
Clearly all that's left of your argument is a strawman against mine.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am You never explained your intuition and logic. Let us hear it.
I didn't appeal to intuition and logic - you did. Lead the way.
Zelebg
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Zelebg »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:42 am It really isn't.
Recursivness in Computability or Recursion theory refers to sets of numbers, Turing machines and very general concept of computability of a function. Recursion in recursive function simply means input to next iteration depends on the result of the last iteration. And with this you have wasted enough of my time, have to ignore you now.
Skepdick
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Skepdick »

Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:25 am Recursion in recursive function simply means input to next iteration depends on the result of the last iteration. And with this you have wasted enough of my time, have to ignore you now.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Congratulations on demonstrating your ignorance.

What you are describing is called a transition function (as part of transition systems).
A Finite state machines is a transition system.

A transition system has state. The state transitions can be outlined in a state-transition table.

It is standard part of a computer science curriculum studied as which is exactly like a Turing machine but with finite tape (memory!). It is also studied in every systems theory curriculum as the realization of any particular system design.

Here is how a stateful f(x) = x + f(x-1) can be expressed as a recursive function

https://repl.it/repls/AnxiousPristinePriority
def sum(n):
if n == 1:
return 1
else:
return n + sum(n-1) #<----- this is exactly where the next iteration depends on the last iteration

print(sum(5))
> 15
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:25 am And with this you have wasted enough of my time, have to ignore you now.
Yeah. Go ahead pretending like you aren't abusing Cunningham's law :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are getting free education. The least you can do is say "Thank you".
Last edited by Skepdick on Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zelebg
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Zelebg »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:40 am Maybe that's what it means to you, but that's not what it means to me or any engineer on this planet.
Oh, so you are just having a stroke. If you recover try to remember there is a whole internet one click away.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursi ... r_science)
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Skepdick »

Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:57 am Oh, so you are just having a stroke. If you recover try to remember there is a whole internet one click away.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursi ... r_science)
Zelebg wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:38 pm You are confusing "recursive function" with "recursion theory". Google it, and if it is still not clear you may then ask me to explain.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So I sent you to the page for recursion theory. Did you even notice that it's actual name is "computability theory"? If you actually understood the very contents of the links you are posting you would've read this paragraph:
Computability theory [N.B a.k.a recursion theory] proves that these recursive-only languages are Turing complete; they are as computationally powerful as Turing complete imperative languages, meaning they can solve the same kinds of problems as imperative languages even without iterative control structures such as while and for.

Run, Sophist! Run! Before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Zelebg
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Zelebg »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:02 am So I sent you to the page for recursion theory. Did you even notice that it's actual name is "computability theory"? If you actually understood the very contents of the links you are posting you would've read this paragraph:
You are repeating yourself, and you were already told:

Recursion is completely different concept in 'Recursion theory' than in 'recursive function'. Clearly then you understand neither.

Recursivness in Computability or Recursion theory refers to sets of numbers, Turing machines and very general concept of computability of a function. Recursion in recursive function simply means input to next iteration depends on the result of the last iteration.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursi ... science%29
Skepdick
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Skepdick »

Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:21 am You are repeating yourself, and you were already told:

Recursion is completely different concept in 'Recursion theory' than in 'recursive function'. Clearly then you understand neither.
You are in no position to be telling anybody anything about things you don't understand.

It's because I understand both is why I am making a fool of you by pointing out all of your confusion.
If you don't mind being made a fool of then carry on - that's exactly how learning works.

You are wrong. You recognise you are wrong. You self-correct.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:21 am Recursivness in Computability or Recursion theory refers to sets of numbers
No, it doesn't. Computer Science has nothing to do with numbers or sets. Computer science is about languages. Formal languages.
That is why the Chomsky's Type 0 grammars ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_h ... 0_grammars ) are called "ALL formal languages". Surely you understand what ALL means?

Let me quote it for you since you are too lazy to read...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_h ... 0_grammars
Type-0 grammars include all formal grammars. They generate exactly all languages that can be recognized by a Turing machine. These languages are also known as the recursively enumerable or Turing-recognizable languages
Turing machines are language recognisers. (and do observe that the root of the word recognition is cognition). Computer science is about symbol-manipulation (which is the very thing which makes human consciousness unique - we have written language, animals don't), alphabets ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_ ... languages) ) are a foundational idea, not numbers.

Mathematics is a sub-set of computer science. If you want numbers, sets or arithmetic - you have to invent them. That's what computer scientists do.

You don't even know what language is and why it's inseparable from any notion of sentience.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:21 am Turing machines and very general concept of computability of a function. Recursion in recursive function simply means input to next iteration depends on the result of the last iteration.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursi ... science%29
Read the article you are linking to, moron :)

It tells you in the very first paragraph that there is no difference between iteration and recursion - they can solve the exact same problems because they are both Turing-complete. I even quoted it for you in my previous post. Is there an upper bound to your laziness?

Turing machines are not just a very general concept for computability - they are a UNIVERSAL concept for "functions". You don't get many universals in Philosophy...
Zelebg
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Zelebg »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:28 am No, it doesn't. Computer Science has nothing to do with numbers or sets
Computing has nothing to do with numbers, eh? I'll just laugh and ignore that since you have taken too much of my time already. Anyhow, you were not talking about "Computer Science", I was. In your confusion instead you were referring me to "Recursion theory", and you were already told in that context 'recursiveness' has different meaning:

The main form of computability studied in recursion theory was introduced by Turing (1936). A set of natural numbers is said to be a computable set (also called a decidable, recursive, or Turing computable set) if there is a Turing machine that... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability_theory
It tells you in the very first paragraph that there is no difference between iteration and recursion
God help you! Here is the paragraph:

Recursion in computer science is a method of solving a problem where the solution depends on solutions to smaller instances of the same problem (as opposed to iteration). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursi ... science%29

It actually says recursion is different than iteration. You are only completely wrong. So you understand neither iteration nor recursion, you even lack basic understanding of words. And you say you're a computer scientist?! Hahahaaa! You are just a kid. Baby philosopher! How cute.
Read the article you are linking to, moron :)
Hahahaaa!
Skepdick
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Skepdick »

Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:45 pm Computing has nothing to do with numbers, eh? I'll just laugh and ignore that since you have taken too much of my time already. Anyhow, you were not talking about "Computer Science", I was.
Are you a computer scientist? I am...

Computing has nothing to do with numbers because numbers don't exist. if your religion is Mathematics - say so.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:45 pm The main form of computability studied in recursion theory was introduced by Turing (1936). A set of natural numbers is said to be a computable set (also called a decidable, recursive, or Turing computable set) if there is a Turing machine that... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability_theory
But it's not 1936 anymore. It's 2019. We picked up where Turing and Church left off and added to it. A lot has happened in 83 years. Much new knowledge has been acquired. We have PLT ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmi ... age_theory ) which is an intersection of mathematics, software engineering, linguistics and even cognitive science.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:45 pm It actually says recursion is different than iteration. You are only completely wrong.
Computability theory proves that these recursive-only languages are Turing complete; are as computationally powerful as Turing complete imperative languages, meaning they can solve the same kinds of problems as imperative languages even without iterative control structures such as while and for
In English. Recursion and Iteration are both Turing-complete, therefore they are Turing-equivalent. Different form - same function.

They produce the exact same same result. It's called confluence ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confluenc ... rewriting) ).

The distinction of the different formalist paradigms is studied in Programming Language Theory.
This should cure your ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm

Imperative, iterative, declarative or recursive are just different paradigms of programming, but ultimately they all do the exact same thing - they are different languages for expressing computations.
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:45 pm So you understand neither iteration nor recursion, you even lack basic understanding of words. And you say you're a computer scientist?! Hahahaaa! You are just a kid. Baby philosopher! How cute.
You can SAY that I am wrong, but your words are meaningless when I am DEMONSTRATING that I am right.
You seem to be projecting - I am not a philosopher. I am a scientist - sience trumps philosophy.

In the face of the evidence below, you are either a liar, ignoramus or both.

https://repl.it/repls/MediumIgnorantProlog

Code: Select all

# Revealing Zelebg's ignorance by demonstrating the 
# Turing-equivalence of recursion and iteration.
# --Skepdick

# Two implementations of sumation

def iteration(n):
  s = 0
  for x in range(1,n+1):
    s = s + x
  return(s)

def recursion(n):
  if n == 1:
    return 1
  else:
    return n + recursion(n-1)

print("Summing up all numbers up to 500 with iteration: {}".format(iteration(500)))
print("Summing up all numbers up to 500 using recursion: {} ".format(recursion(500)))

It took me a minute to write the above algorithms. If you had any clue what you were talking about then you should have no problem demonstrating it with some of your own work in a Programming language of your choice.
Zelebg
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Zelebg »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:53 pm

Code: Select all

def iteration(n):
  s = 0
  for x in range(1,n+1):
    s = s + x
  return(s)
"For/next" is a macro for recursive function. But iteration being different from recursion doesn't mean they can't implement the same function, and is beside the original point anyway.
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by Skepdick »

Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:38 pm "For/next" is a macro for recursive function.
You are lying again.

There are empirical (e.g measurable and testable) differences between iteration and recursion.
And I am adding symbolic computation for fun also.

https://repl.it/repls/FineSplendidCodec

Code: Select all

# Further revealing Zelebg's ignorance by demonstrating 
# that the iterative, symbolic and recursive methods
# are not the same in practice
# --Skepdick

def iteration(n):
  s = 0
  for x in range(1,n+1):
    s = s + x
  return(s)

def recursion(n):
  if n == 1:
    return 1
  else:
    return n + recursion(n-1)

def symbolic(n):
   return n*(n+1)/2

n=1000
print("Summing up all numbers up to 1000 using symbolic computation: {} ".format(symbolic(n)))
print("Summing up all numbers up to 1000 with iteration: {}".format(iteration(n)))
print("Summing up all numbers up to 1000 using recursion: {} ".format(recursion(n)))
The iterative implementation produces a result.
The symbolic implementation produces a result.
The recursive implementation crashes with RecursionError: maximum recursion depth exceeded

And you still can't tell us why....
Zelebg wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:38 pm But iteration being different from recursion doesn't mean they can't implement the same function, and is beside the original point anyway
So whatever distinction you were drawing between recursion and iteration was immaterial to your argument? Exactly! Why are you derailing your own argument with pointless nit-picking then?
roydop
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by roydop »

So to follow up on some of this:

In short, sentience will remain artificial until YOU (what you take yourself to be) are looking through the lens of a camera of a machine. I expect such an abomination to be a hybrid of mechanical and biological.

The big thing to take away from this is: The reason WHY we are becoming ever more addicted to the screen is because humanity is on the verge of extinction and Maya (it's the best name for it) is creating a new realm to be the accepted reality.

Humanity is being drawn into a new hybrid form of reality. This realm will be part physical (what can be recorded via mechanical instruments) and whatever karmic residue is left from your past human experiences.

Now you can go along for the ride in ignorance or you can be aware through the process and maybe even have some choice in the matter. This is accomplished by turning Awareness away from the screen and "inward" to the space between thoughts.
SteveKlinko
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by SteveKlinko »

roydop wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:58 am A.I. will become sentient when human consciousness merges with it. The code itself is incapable of creating consciousness. Consciousness is not created; it is the life force that animates the universe. A.I. acts like a virus. A virus has no life-producing mechanism of it's own. Living cells have entrance portals on their surface. These portals have locks on them. When the cells are required to perform a task, the body produces the "keys" to fit the locks and sends them out. The locks that recieve the keys that fit, the cell accepts the key's information. A virus imitates the key in an attempt to get the cell to accept it's information. If the virus is similar enough to the key, the cell will believe it to be the information from the body and open up. The virus is "downloaded" and the cell's original programming is reprogrammed to simply churn out copies of the virus. The digital realm requires human sentiance to make it "real". This is the cause of our addiction to the screen. There is a phase transition occuring. The human species is going extinct and consciousness is (re)creating a new reality to move into. When the human species goes extinct there will be no way to reincarnate. Human consciousness is the conclusion of evolution. The physical cycle of experience is concluding immediately (within a couple of decades).


The Singularity occurs when human conciousness begins paying more attention to the digital realm than the physical realm.

5G and quantum computers are the final technological advances that will make the transition possible.
Last sentence sounds like some kind of 5G Marketing push. I hope you are just kidding about 5G. Maybe Quantum Computing will have some role to play eventually. When you use words and phrases like Singularity and Phase Transition you are just playing word games.
roydop
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by roydop »

Firstly, in no way do i see this paradigm shift a "good" thing. We are moving into a simulation within a simulation. It's like the scene in "Inception" where he goes down into the deepest dream level to rescue that old guy.

Secondly, the words i use are the most accurate way in which to relate what's happening at the most fundamental levels of reality.
SteveKlinko
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Re: A.I. requires human consciousness for sentience

Post by SteveKlinko »

roydop wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:47 pm Firstly, in no way do i see this paradigm shift a "good" thing. We are moving into a simulation within a simulation. It's like the scene in "Inception" where he goes down into the deepest dream level to rescue that old guy.

Secondly, the words i use are the most accurate way in which to relate what's happening at the most fundamental levels of reality.
Nonsense. Singularity is a Mathematical fiction just like Infinity is a Mathematical fiction. The word itself was misappropriated from Mathematics and used in a way that was meaningless in terms of the AI/Technological/Computational Singularity fantasy.
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