Mechanism for free will I don't see anyone has proposed

[Zelebg]

This is basically a principle of Darwin's evolution where possible choices come in raw similar to random mutations, but then get selected by brain "patterns" representing ecosystem in this comparison. It combines randomness and determinism, but should work more or less the same regardless of determinacy of underlying physics.

"Identity" - Let us define it as material, biological "code" which determines who you are, that is determines shape and structure of your brain, the way you think, the way you process sensations. Your identity is your DNA at the start of your life, and as you live, this code, now reflected in the patterns of your brain, combines your memories and your thoughts to change and update itself, producing slightly different patterns and thus representing slightly older you, but also your newer and hopefully wiser identity or personality. By "brain patterns" I mean whole spatial and temporal description of every atom/molecule and charge in your whole nervous system.

Now, suppose exactly to nanosecond on my 20th birthday I get to choose between a cup of tea, coffee or milk, and patterns in my brain representing this choice at that time look like this:

Code: Select all

|vvv||vv^||^v^|
 tea  cof  mil

Imagine this as three cups or receptors where first has greatest volume requiring the most time to fill. So that pattern represents my low affinity for tea and high affinity for milk. Your pattern for the same options right now may look like this:

Code: Select all

|vvv||^^^||---|
 tea  cof  mil

Meaning low chance to choose tea, very high chance to choose coffee, milk no chance.

The mechanism: as I make my choice, say charge randomly fills in my choice receptors and whichever one reaches its threshold first marks the choice has been made. The choice was made by me, by "patterns of my brain". Is this not free will? And if not, then what exactly is it I am not free from, in this case?

[henry quirk]

All I'm seein' in the post is 'mechanism'.

[Eodnhoj7]

All I'm seein' in the post is 'mechanism'.

Sounds like a robotic approach to me, if a mechanism results in free will...then his argument negates itself.

[henry quirk]

All I'm seein' in the post is 'mechanism'.

Sounds like a robotic approach to me, if a mechanism results in free will...then his argument negates itself.

Yep. It attempts to reduce the irreducible. Yeah, a man can be dissected, broken down into bits, but no where in that mass of tissue will you find the person, the agent, the free will, the tissue comprised.

[Zelebg]

If there is something wrong with there being a "mechanism" why not say what the problem actually is, and what could possibly be an alternative, fairy dust?

[henry quirk]

If there is something wrong with there being a "mechanism" why not say what the problem actually is, and what could possibly be an alternative, fairy dust?

The problem: man is sumthin' more than organic machinery, and you attempt to describe him as just organic machinery.

Fairy dust: as I say up-thread, not understanding a thing doesn't make that thing magic or fiction. No, I don't understand how it is I'm a person, an agent, a free will. None of us understands how the human brain gives rise to self-awareness. Fundamentally, we don't even understand how inanimate matter gave rise to animate matter (life, in any of its forms). We're surrounded by all manner of things large and small, gross and subtle, that we have no clue about. I wanna know, same as you. One day, I think we will. Till then I accept what's obvious: I am an agent in the world, not an event; I am more than biological mechanism. Any model of Reality has to account for this; none currently do. After a fashion, creatin' a model of 'what is' is what you're tryin' to do in this thread, and that's great, but you're excluding when you should be including.

Simply: you're trying to reduce the irreducible, tryin' to understand free will based on pieces and parts when mebbe free will is only present in the whole.

As usual, I jibber-jabber, talkin' too much and sayin' too little.

[Atla]

as I make my choice, say charge randomly fills in my choice receptors

But they don't fill randomly, how they fill also seems to be deterministic.

[Eodnhoj7]

If there is something wrong with there being a "mechanism" why not say what the problem actually is, and what could possibly be an alternative, fairy dust?

It's a contradiction as free will is then determined by a specific process.

[Zelebg]

as I make my choice, say charge randomly fills in my choice receptors

But they don't fill randomly, how they fill also seems to be deterministic.

Randomness is not necessary, I just put it there to mirror evolution principle. Imagine instead those receptors fill in simultaneously at the same rate. You see the point is that something that is like passive reciever can also be an agent able to choose, or 'select'. Literally a geometric shape can make "decisions", like two sides of a house roof decide which rain drops go one way and which ones go the other.

[Atla]

as I make my choice, say charge randomly fills in my choice receptors

But they don't fill randomly, how they fill also seems to be deterministic.

Randomness is not necessary, I just put it there to mirror evolution principle. Imagine instead those receptors fill in simultaneously at the same rate. You see the point is that something that is like passive reciever can also be an agent able to choose, or 'select'. Literally a geometric shape can make "decisions", like two sides of a house roof decide which rain drops go one way and which ones go the other.

No they can't make such "decisions" when things are predetermined, and neither does evolution.

[bahman]

This is basically a principle of Darwin's evolution where possible choices come in raw similar to random mutations, but then get selected by brain "patterns" representing ecosystem in this comparison. It combines randomness and determinism, but should work more or less the same regardless of determinacy of underlying physics.

"Identity" - Let us define it as material, biological "code" which determines who you are, that is determines shape and structure of your brain, the way you think, the way you process sensations. Your identity is your DNA at the start of your life, and as you live, this code, now reflected in the patterns of your brain, combines your memories and your thoughts to change and update itself, producing slightly different patterns and thus representing slightly older you, but also your newer and hopefully wiser identity or personality. By "brain patterns" I mean whole spatial and temporal description of every atom/molecule and charge in your whole nervous system.

Now, suppose exactly to nanosecond on my 20th birthday I get to choose between a cup of tea, coffee or milk, and patterns in my brain representing this choice at that time look like this:

Code: Select all

|vvv||vv^||^v^|
 tea  cof  mil

Imagine this as three cups or receptors where first has greatest volume requiring the most time to fill. So that pattern represents my low affinity for tea and high affinity for milk. Your pattern for the same options right now may look like this:

Code: Select all

|vvv||^^^||---|
 tea  cof  mil

Meaning low chance to choose tea, very high chance to choose coffee, milk no chance.

The mechanism: as I make my choice, say charge randomly fills in my choice receptors and whichever one reaches its threshold first marks the choice has been made. The choice was made by me, by "patterns of my brain". Is this not free will? And if not, then what exactly is it I am not free from, in this case?

Can you terminate a chain of thoughts? This is an uncaused cause process. It is not reducible to something else. Free will.

[Eodnhoj7]

This is basically a principle of Darwin's evolution where possible choices come in raw similar to random mutations, but then get selected by brain "patterns" representing ecosystem in this comparison. It combines randomness and determinism, but should work more or less the same regardless of determinacy of underlying physics.

"Identity" - Let us define it as material, biological "code" which determines who you are, that is determines shape and structure of your brain, the way you think, the way you process sensations. Your identity is your DNA at the start of your life, and as you live, this code, now reflected in the patterns of your brain, combines your memories and your thoughts to change and update itself, producing slightly different patterns and thus representing slightly older you, but also your newer and hopefully wiser identity or personality. By "brain patterns" I mean whole spatial and temporal description of every atom/molecule and charge in your whole nervous system.

Now, suppose exactly to nanosecond on my 20th birthday I get to choose between a cup of tea, coffee or milk, and patterns in my brain representing this choice at that time look like this:

Code: Select all

|vvv||vv^||^v^|
 tea  cof  mil

Imagine this as three cups or receptors where first has greatest volume requiring the most time to fill. So that pattern represents my low affinity for tea and high affinity for milk. Your pattern for the same options right now may look like this:

Code: Select all

|vvv||^^^||---|
 tea  cof  mil

Meaning low chance to choose tea, very high chance to choose coffee, milk no chance.

The mechanism: as I make my choice, say charge randomly fills in my choice receptors and whichever one reaches its threshold first marks the choice has been made. The choice was made by me, by "patterns of my brain". Is this not free will? And if not, then what exactly is it I am not free from, in this case?

Can you terminate a chain of thoughts? This is an uncaused cause process. It is not reducible to something else. Free will.

Best your can do is create a new string, but it is still subject to a string. Thus freewill manifests certain laws of form by nature.

Yeah, that is a good way of putting it, the line seems to be uncaused cause.

[Zelebg]

Fairy dust: as I say up-thread, not understanding a thing doesn't make that thing magic or fiction

By "fairy dust" I mean 'without cause or reason'. By "mechanism" I mean 'description of causal interactions', or 'process with set of rules'. An algorithm, for example, is a virtual mechanism to causally interrelate symbolic values and functions.

I am not really bound to material world, but we have to get there on our way back from the mind, wherever that thing is, if we are ever to figure out whether it can actually interact back with molecules of our body. And only if it can, only then we get to ask the question just how much 'free' was that causation and can we really call it an 'intention'.

[Zelebg]

No they can't make such "decisions" when things are predetermined, and neither does evolution.

Just to confirm, you don't mind roof as inanimate object making decisions in such passive way as I described, your objection is determinism only? In any case, if you don't mind, please let me understand how you arrive to conclusion determinism rules out possibility of free will. And how do you answer my question from the opening post in relation to the mechanism described - if that's not free will, then what exactly is it I am not free from?

By the way, how about Matrix type simulation, could it be made in principle such that we do have free will in there, given we could make laws of physics whichever way we like?

[Zelebg]

If there is something wrong with there being a "mechanism" why not say what the problem actually is, and what could possibly be an alternative, fairy dust?

It's a contradiction as free will is then determined by a specific process.

Even if that "process" is you yourself?