Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:54 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:29 pm
I know that I am the Redness when I see a Red Apple. On the other hand I know I am not an Apple when I see a Red Apple.
There is no direct experience of the Red Apple..it's purely a concept known already couched within consciousness the only knowing there is. There is no direct experience of being consciousness because you are the consciousness that is experiencing itself directly as and through the concept it knows that is never a direct experience because consciousness is not an object.

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:29 pm
The Apple itself has an independent Existence in the Physical Universe but my Conscious Experience of Redness is only in my Mind and is therefore part of what I am.
The Physical Universe is a known concept of what is actually the fluidity of formless mental mentation, in that a form can only exist as a concept, which is an illusory image known of what is actually this constantly changing timeless flux of fluid infinite energy...appearing as fixed things aka in -form-ation aka fictional knowledge created by the mind of thought which is like frozen energy in time.

A concept maybe fixed, as an apple can never be an orange, but notice the actual apple never stays an apple, because it's molecular structure changes from solid to liquid...and since all form is made of atoms which is just empty space, nothing is being a concept except nothing itself which is the mind.

Of course this all sounds a bit woo woo and probably a load of old blah blah nonsense to the intellectual mind.. but then that's bascially what happens when one tries to explain the ineffable, it's unavoidable.

I may talk nonsense, but only I can understand my reality, because I am the only one living it.
I have no access to anything outside of me, so only me here can define what is real or unreal, true of false, because IAM the only living knowing truth there is appearing to myself. If some other mind informs me about anything, it is still up to me here to decide what that knowledge actually means.

And that goes for every other I which is just the same one I coming from a different perspective, dreaming difference where there is none.

I don't care if other minds tell me I'm nuts and insane, because as far as I know here, I am the only sane person I know, and that it is no one elses business what only I know.

I can share what I know, but I'm not in any way expecting others to like it, nor do I care, if the cap fits then wear it.

I don't even know where all these ideas that I speak of come from, they are just coming out of their own accord from a source unknown to me. Probably from the void itself, from source to source.

Source to source just means the imagined other consciousness.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:21 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:54 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:29 pm
I know that I am the Redness when I see a Red Apple. On the other hand I know I am not an Apple when I see a Red Apple.
There is no direct experience of the Red Apple..it's purely a concept known already couched within consciousness the only knowing there is. There is no direct experience of being consciousness because you are the consciousness that is experiencing itself directly as and through the concept it knows that is never a direct experience because consciousness is not an object.

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:29 pm
The Apple itself has an independent Existence in the Physical Universe but my Conscious Experience of Redness is only in my Mind and is therefore part of what I am.
The Physical Universe is a known concept of what is actually the fluidity of formless mental mentation, in that a form can only exist as a concept, which is an illusory image known of what is actually this constantly changing timeless flux of fluid infinite energy...appearing as fixed things aka in -form-ation aka fictional knowledge created by the mind of thought which is like frozen energy in time.

A concept maybe fixed, as an apple can never be an orange, but notice the actual apple never stays an apple, because it's molecular structure changes from solid to liquid...and since all form is made of atoms which is just empty space, nothing is being a concept except nothing itself which is the mind.

Of course this all sounds a bit woo woo and probably a load of old blah blah nonsense to the intellectual mind.. but then that's bascially what happens when one tries to explain the ineffable, it's unavoidable.

I may talk nonsense, but only I can understand my reality, because I am the only one living it.
I have no access to anything outside of me, so only me here can define what is real or unreal, true of false, because IAM the only living knowing truth there is appearing to myself. If some other mind informs me about anything, it is still up to me here to decide what that knowledge actually means.

And that goes for every other I which is just the same one I coming from a different perspective, dreaming difference where there is none.

I don't care if other minds tell me I'm nuts and insane, because as far as I know here, I am the only sane person I know, and that it is no one elses business what only I know.

I can share what I know, but I'm not in any way expecting others to like it, nor do I care, if the cap fits then wear it.

I don't even know where all these ideas that I speak of come from, they are just coming out of their own accord from a source unknown to me. Probably from the void itself, from source to source.

Source to source just means the imagined other consciousness.

.
It seems that if there was only this One Consciousness then you would have access to things outside of you. You should have access to everything.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:21 pm
It seems that if there was only this One Consciousness then you would have access to things outside of you. You should have access to everything.
Outside of you comes from Inside of you. Inside of you comes from Outside of you.

You is a two way mirror reflecting yourself everywhere and nowhere as everything and nothing.

.

Ramu
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Ramu » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:13 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:21 pm
It seems that if there was only this One Consciousness then you would have access to things outside of you. You should have access to everything.
Outside of you comes from Inside of you. Inside of you comes from Outside of you.

You is a two way mirror reflecting yourself everywhere and nowhere as everything and nothing.

.
Well let's be honest. You won't have access to the relative despite You Being the Absolute. In other words I don't know what you had for breakfast, yet despite that you can discover Your True Self Absolutely!

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:48 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:21 pm
It seems that if there was only this One Consciousness then you would have access to things outside of you. You should have access to everything.
Outside of you comes from Inside of you. Inside of you comes from Outside of you.

You is a two way mirror reflecting yourself everywhere and nowhere as everything and nothing.

.
So I do understand and I don't understand all at the same time.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:52 am

Ramu wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:13 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:21 pm
It seems that if there was only this One Consciousness then you would have access to things outside of you. You should have access to everything.
Outside of you comes from Inside of you. Inside of you comes from Outside of you.

You is a two way mirror reflecting yourself everywhere and nowhere as everything and nothing.

.
Well let's be honest. You won't have access to the relative despite You Being the Absolute. In other words I don't know what you had for breakfast, yet despite that you can discover Your True Self Absolutely!
But it seems to me that if you are the Absolute then you Should know what I had for breakfast.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by mickthinks » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:39 pm

My knowledge is imperfect and the only thing I can be sure of is that nothing is knowable for certain.

It is a mistake to impute from that uncertainty the certainty that there is nothing to know.

That there is Reality is a basic assumption. It is so basic as to be impossible to put to any test, and doubting it is a waste of good thinking time.

Skepdick
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:47 pm

mickthinks wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:39 pm
My knowledge is imperfect and the only thing I can be sure of is that nothing is knowable for certain.
You are allowed to know some hard limits. That's kinda useful in drawing hard lines between "possible" and "impossible".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:15 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:52 am
Ramu wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:13 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 am


Outside of you comes from Inside of you. Inside of you comes from Outside of you.

You is a two way mirror reflecting yourself everywhere and nowhere as everything and nothing.

.
Well let's be honest. You won't have access to the relative despite You Being the Absolute. In other words I don't know what you had for breakfast, yet despite that you can discover Your True Self Absolutely!
But it seems to me that if you are the Absolute then you Should know what I had for breakfast.
Ramu is correct in making that statement.

There is no awareness or knowledge of anything happening until after it's happened.

Everything that could possibly happen has already happened, else nothing could happen. Time-space- duality is within the dream of separation upon the event horizon where reality is experienced only one frame at a time, which stops everything happening all at once.

Knowledge known is always relative albeit illusory, since the known is known only on demand via use of memory recall aka mental activity within absolute consciousness itself. In other words, there is no one accessing itself via the memory recall except the same one aware self - aware of itself one frame of reference at a time, and while that is being awared, no other thing is happening.

Life is recording events live in this immediate realtime now, it is only upon relfection, aka as and through mentation that events become known by the absolute awareness becoming aware of itself - the only knowing there is.

So there is no gap between the knower and the known, they are ONE in the immediate moment. Only upon reflection a demand to know does an imaginary gap appear between the knower and the known.
But this is all the trick of the split mind, the split is illusory.

In essence, every eventful thing that happens has already happened. To know you know is to be aware of the recording by association, aka remembering yourself via the memory as and through the recorded memory...and to see that the you only exists in the recording, and that no ''other'' one is being aware of the recorded you, because it's all you as awareness IS ising everything into being totally without a name or ownership or authority. It's absolutely pure magic. It is all you.

.

.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by mickthinks » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:30 am

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:47 pm
mickthinks wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:39 pm
My knowledge is imperfect and the only thing I can be sure of is that nothing is knowable for certain.
You are allowed to know some hard limits. That's kinda useful in drawing hard lines between "possible" and "impossible".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility
I disagree, and I think you underestimate how basic the epistemic problem is. Even your using words like "possible" "allowed" and "you" depends on assumptions like the assumption that you are something that has genuine recall of ideas and experiences. An assumption not worth discarding (perhaps impossible to discard and even impossible to imagine discarding) but not knowable for certain.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:33 pm

mickthinks wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:30 am
I disagree, and I think you underestimate how basic the epistemic problem is. Even your using words like "possible" "allowed" and "you" depends on assumptions like the assumption that you are something that has genuine recall of ideas and experiences. An assumption not worth discarding (perhaps impossible to discard and even impossible to imagine discarding) but not knowable for certain.
I disagree with your disagreement. When you are using phrases like "epistemic problem" you are assuming that there is one.

Are you 100% certain or are you uncertain that there is an epistemic problem?

To boil it down to a yes/no question: Is human epistemic omnipotence possible?

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by mickthinks » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 pm

When you are using phrases like "epistemic problem" you are assuming that there is one.

Not really. I am assuming a load of stuff, but the one thing I cannot doubt is that, whoever or whatever I am, I experience uncertainty where knowledge requires certainty, and that is an epistemic problem.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:54 pm

mickthinks wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 pm
When you are using phrases like "epistemic problem" you are assuming that there is one.

Not really. I am assuming a load of stuff, but the one thing I cannot doubt is that, whoever or whatever I am, I experience uncertainty where knowledge requires certainty, and that is an epistemic problem.
So.... what it seems you are saying is that you know at least the following two things with 100% certainty.

1. There is a limit to knowledge.
2. Human omnipotence is impossible.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:15 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:52 am
Ramu wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:13 pm

Well let's be honest. You won't have access to the relative despite You Being the Absolute. In other words I don't know what you had for breakfast, yet despite that you can discover Your True Self Absolutely!
But it seems to me that if you are the Absolute then you Should know what I had for breakfast.
Ramu is correct in making that statement.

There is no awareness or knowledge of anything happening until after it's happened.

Everything that could possibly happen has already happened, else nothing could happen. Time-space- duality is within the dream of separation upon the event horizon where reality is experienced only one frame at a time, which stops everything happening all at once.

Knowledge known is always relative albeit illusory, since the known is known only on demand via use of memory recall aka mental activity within absolute consciousness itself. In other words, there is no one accessing itself via the memory recall except the same one aware self - aware of itself one frame of reference at a time, and while that is being awared, no other thing is happening.

Life is recording events live in this immediate realtime now, it is only upon relfection, aka as and through mentation that events become known by the absolute awareness becoming aware of itself - the only knowing there is.

So there is no gap between the knower and the known, they are ONE in the immediate moment. Only upon reflection a demand to know does an imaginary gap appear between the knower and the known.
But this is all the trick of the split mind, the split is illusory.

In essence, every eventful thing that happens has already happened. To know you know is to be aware of the recording by association, aka remembering yourself via the memory as and through the recorded memory...and to see that the you only exists in the recording, and that no ''other'' one is being aware of the recorded you, because it's all you as awareness IS ising everything into being totally without a name or ownership or authority. It's absolutely pure magic. It is all you.

.

.
But Ramu should not only Know what I had for breakfast, he should also Know how the pancakes and over easy eggs tasted.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:03 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:16 pm
But Ramu should not only Know what I had for breakfast, he should also Know how the pancakes and over easy eggs tasted.
No, because Ramu is an idea, a known concept of Consciousness that is you HERE.
Ramu doesn't exist outside or inside of you, Ramu is an idea that is KNOWN HERE NOW - NOWHERE... by the only knowing there is which is consciousness which is everywhere and nowhere, unbounded limitless and free of identity.

Ramu is an idea known, it's knowledge talking to itself.

Ramu is the Absolute Self - so is Steve.

The Self that is Ramu is the same Self that is Steve.

There is no other SELF
There is no other SELF external to Absolute SELF except A projection made HERE...appearing to be out-there.

SELF aka "I am the Absolute Truth", could be interpreted as solipsism in one of it's primitive senses, as the world is but an illusion in the mind of the observer. However, Advaita Vedanta can be understood to be non-solipsistic when it is recognised that it does not actually deny the existence of a world 'external' to the SELF.

Rather, it is asserting that the consciousness and awareness of the individual pervades all of that person's experience, to such an extent that absolute notions of 'inside' and 'outside' are arbitrary.

The universe is the same as the SELF, as the universe can only be experienced through the self and the self is submerged within the universe as an integrated part.

Diverging away from the idea of solipsism belonging to a known identity aka the relative self, the Absolute Self can be seen auspiciously by simply exploring the mind in order to finally understand the nature of the self and attain complete knowledge of the unity of existence is to be directly experienced and understood at the end as a part of complete knowledge.

The end of knowledge is the END of an assumed idea there is a separate identity apart from the Absolute Self, it is seen that such an identity does not exist except in this conception albeit illusory.

On the other hand solipsism posits the non-existence of the external void right at the beginning, and says that no further inquiry is possible.

.

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