Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm

" Reality – that which we connote in our Western patriarchal culture when we speak of
reality – is an explanatory assumption, an imagined domain of independent entities that we
use in order to give universal validity to our explanations of our experiences."

H. Maturana

Essentially, all explanations are attempts to understand the same thing; this ineffable,
continuously cresting wave of spontaneous presence and immediacy, that is our life and
living. In a sense, this ever-present flowing of experience can never be completely and
exhaustively explained. It simply and primordially is. Each one of us is effortlessly born
into it. Each morning we wake to it. Wherever we look . . . there it is and even the looking
itself, is what it is. What is changing, through time and evolving culture, are the structurally
determined generative mechanisms that we are willing and able to accept as explanations for
this mystery.
Through explanation we birth worlds.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

uwot
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by uwot » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:47 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm
Each one of us is effortlessly born into it.
Uh huh. Tell that to your mother.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:43 am

uwot wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:47 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm
Each one of us is effortlessly born into it.
Uh huh. Tell that to your mother.
You cannot tell yourself you are born.

You have no way of knowing you are born.

Same goes for death. You cannot tell yourself you are dead.

You have no way of knowing you are dead.

''There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.''


.

uwot
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by uwot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:11 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:43 am
uwot wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:47 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm
Each one of us is effortlessly born into it.
Uh huh. Tell that to your mother.
You cannot tell yourself you are born.

You have no way of knowing you are born.
I asked my mother.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:43 am
Same goes for death. You cannot tell yourself you are dead.

You have no way of knowing you are dead.
Now that I can agree with.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:43 am
''There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.''
Then it isn't a view, it's a dogma and should therefore be treated with utter contempt by any sane person.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:20 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:43 am
''There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.''
uwot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:11 am
Then it isn't a view, it's a dogma and should therefore be treated with utter contempt by any sane person.
To be sane is to be insane.

All knowledge is dogma. There is no known author of dogma.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:22 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:43 am

You cannot tell yourself you are born.

You have no way of knowing you are born.
uwot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:11 am
I asked my mother.
Who told her?

.

uwot
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by uwot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:23 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:20 am
To be sane is to be insane.

All knowledge is dogma. There is no known author of dogma.
Is that a fact? Tell me, have you ever thought about the sound of no hands clapping?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:30 am

uwot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:23 am
Tell me, have you ever thought about the sound of no hands clapping?
Thoughts are known, there is awareness of the thought ''the sound of no hands clapping''

So the answer is yes I have been aware of that thought.



.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm
" Reality – that which we connote in our Western patriarchal culture when we speak of
reality – is an explanatory assumption, an imagined domain of independent entities that we
use in order to give universal validity to our explanations of our experiences."

H. Maturana

Essentially, all explanations are attempts to understand the same thing; this ineffable,
continuously cresting wave of spontaneous presence and immediacy, that is our life and
living. In a sense, this ever-present flowing of experience can never be completely and
exhaustively explained. It simply and primordially is. Each one of us is effortlessly born
into it. Each morning we wake to it. Wherever we look . . . there it is and even the looking
itself, is what it is. What is changing, through time and evolving culture, are the structurally
determined generative mechanisms that we are willing and able to accept as explanations for
this mystery.
Through explanation we birth worlds.
Difficult to dissect what you say in this post. Don't know how this closes the Explanatory Gap with something like: Neural Activity in the Brain causing Conscious Activity in the Mind. I guess it is because you believe the Neural Activity does not even exist. In your way of thinking everything is Consciousness.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:11 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:03 pm
Difficult to dissect what you say in this post. Don't know how this closes the Explanatory Gap with something like: Neural Activity in the Brain causing Conscious Activity in the Mind. I guess it is because you believe the Neural Activity does not even exist. In your way of thinking everything is Consciousness.
Things only exist as an idea known by consciousness. . what is an idea? what is the consciousness that knows the idea?...I have no idea.

.

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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:11 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:03 pm
Difficult to dissect what you say in this post. Don't know how this closes the Explanatory Gap with something like: Neural Activity in the Brain causing Conscious Activity in the Mind. I guess it is because you believe the Neural Activity does not even exist. In your way of thinking everything is Consciousness.
Things only exist as an idea known by consciousness. . what is an idea? what is the consciousness that knows the idea?...I have no idea.

.
In my reality there is an objective Physical Universe that Exists regardless of someone thinking about it. From your perspective, why does the Universe try to fool us into thinking that there really is a Universe?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm
In my reality there is an objective Physical Universe that Exists regardless of someone thinking about it. From your perspective, why does the Universe try to fool us into thinking that there really is a Universe?
It fools you into thinking there is a someone thinking about reality, and that the thought reality belongs to the thinking someone. But on further inspection, it is not known who or what or why there is thinking.

And that no thinker can ever be found.


.

Ramu
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by Ramu » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:03 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm
" Reality – that which we connote in our Western patriarchal culture when we speak of
reality – is an explanatory assumption, an imagined domain of independent entities that we
use in order to give universal validity to our explanations of our experiences."

H. Maturana

Essentially, all explanations are attempts to understand the same thing; this ineffable,
continuously cresting wave of spontaneous presence and immediacy, that is our life and
living. In a sense, this ever-present flowing of experience can never be completely and
exhaustively explained. It simply and primordially is. Each one of us is effortlessly born
into it. Each morning we wake to it. Wherever we look . . . there it is and even the looking
itself, is what it is. What is changing, through time and evolving culture, are the structurally
determined generative mechanisms that we are willing and able to accept as explanations for
this mystery.
Through explanation we birth worlds.
Difficult to dissect what you say in this post. Don't know how this closes the Explanatory Gap with something like: Neural Activity in the Brain causing Conscious Activity in the Mind. I guess it is because you believe the Neural Activity does not even exist. In your way of thinking everything is Consciousness.
Exactly. Everything is Consciousness. Everything occurs within Consciousness, your True Self!

SteveKlinko
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:25 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:43 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm
In my reality there is an objective Physical Universe that Exists regardless of someone thinking about it. From your perspective, why does the Universe try to fool us into thinking that there really is a Universe?
It fools you into thinking there is a someone thinking about reality, and that the thought reality belongs to the thinking someone. But on further inspection, it is not known who or what or why there is thinking.

And that no thinker can ever be found.


.
I am completely fooled then. I will continue with my foolish Quest because I have no other choice based on the Reality I know.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Closing Imagined Explanatory Gaps

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:29 pm

Ramu wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:03 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 pm
" Reality – that which we connote in our Western patriarchal culture when we speak of
reality – is an explanatory assumption, an imagined domain of independent entities that we
use in order to give universal validity to our explanations of our experiences."

H. Maturana


Difficult to dissect what you say in this post. Don't know how this closes the Explanatory Gap with something like: Neural Activity in the Brain causing Conscious Activity in the Mind. I guess it is because you believe the Neural Activity does not even exist. In your way of thinking everything is Consciousness.
Exactly. Everything is Consciousness. Everything occurs within Consciousness, your True Self!
I know that I am the Redness when I see a Red Apple. On the other hand I know I am not an Apple when I see a Red Apple. The Apple itself has an independent Existence in the Physical Universe but my Conscious Experience of Redness is only in my Mind and is therefore part of what I am.

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