Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:56 am

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:59 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:24 pm

I think you've said more than needs to be said. It simply begs the question: What is physics?

For I can sure say this: The Universe is.

On the other hand, that sure begs the question: Why do you need to know or say anything about The Universe?
Because that is what the Inquiring Human Mind does.
This fallacy has a name. Appeal to purity. A.k.a No True Scotsman

Why does an Inquiring Human Mind do that?
It was just an Analogy, and nothing more. Digging into side effects of an Analogy is just Diversionary Argumentation. Try to understand the top level intention of the Analogy. By Understand I mean Get the Point. By Get I mean Understand. By Point I mean ...

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:57 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:56 am
It was just an Analogy, and nothing more. Digging into side effects of an Analogy is just Diversionary Argumentation. Try to understand the top level intention of the Analogy. By Understand I mean Get the Point. By Get I mean Understand. By Point I mean ...
By 'point' you mean - nothing.

You have no external criterion. You don't know how to verify your 'understanding' in practice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism

commonsense
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by commonsense » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 am
Consciousness is the nature of reality, just as consciousness is the nature of dream.
I agree, but just as a matter of curiosity, I was thinking about dreams we remember when we wake up v. the dreams we don’t remember at all. Were we conscious of the dreams we don’t remember in the morning?

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:15 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 am
Consciousness is the nature of reality, just as consciousness is the nature of dream.
I agree, but just as a matter of curiosity, I was thinking about dreams we remember when we wake up v. the dreams we don’t remember at all. Were we conscious of the dreams we don’t remember in the morning?
You are forgetting that Consciousness is in a new Category of Phenomena that Science cannot deal with yet. Verificationism cannot deal with Consciousness yet. You are putting the Cart before the Horse again. We need a First Clue about Consciousness before we direct our attention to your peripheral Philosophical concerns.

commonsense
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by commonsense » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:38 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:15 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 am
Consciousness is the nature of reality, just as consciousness is the nature of dream.
I agree, but just as a matter of curiosity, I was thinking about dreams we remember when we wake up v. the dreams we don’t remember at all. Were we conscious of the dreams we don’t remember in the morning?
You are forgetting that Consciousness is in a new Category of Phenomena that Science cannot deal with yet. Verificationism cannot deal with Consciousness yet. You are putting the Cart before the Horse again. We need a First Clue about Consciousness before we direct our attention to your peripheral Philosophical concerns.
Curses! But you are right. Thank you.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:50 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:15 pm
You are forgetting that Consciousness is in a new Category of Phenomena that Science cannot deal with yet. Verificationism cannot deal with Consciousness yet. You are putting the Cart before the Horse again. We need a First Clue about Consciousness before we direct our attention to your peripheral Philosophical concerns.
But you have put the horse before the cart already! You have pre-supposed consciousness exists.

According to you - is consciousness falsifiable? Because that is a limit of science. If it's not falsifiable - it's not scientific.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:03 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:50 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:15 pm
You are forgetting that Consciousness is in a new Category of Phenomena that Science cannot deal with yet. Verificationism cannot deal with Consciousness yet. You are putting the Cart before the Horse again. We need a First Clue about Consciousness before we direct our attention to your peripheral Philosophical concerns.
But you have put the horse before the cart already! You have pre-supposed consciousness exists.

According to you - is consciousness falsifiable? Because that is a limit of science. If it's not falsifiable - it's not scientific.
I do not assume that Consciousness Exists in terms of the ultimate answer to the question. The fact of it's non Existence could be the answer to the question. But of course I Speculate that it might Exist. That is the motivation for the whole study. To have falsifiability there must be a Theory. There are no Theories yet.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:21 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:03 pm
I do not assume that Consciousness Exists in terms of the ultimate answer to the question. The fact of it's non Existence could be the answer to the question. But of course I Speculate that it might Exist. That is the motivation for the whole study. To have falsifiability there must be a Theory. There are no Theories yet.
There appears to be some misunderstanding on your part as to how we use theories in practice.

Theories explain empirical phenomena.

The theory of gravity explains the phenomena of apples falling to the ground.

That doesn't mean that gravity exists. It means that 'gravity' is the explanation we give for for WHY the apple falls to the ground.
In future, it is entirely possible (even if unlikely) that a better theory comes about to explain how/why the apple falls to the ground.

If that were to happen then science would say that gravity doesn't exist.

But the point remains. The theory of gravity explains the apple falling. Having a theory of gravity doesn't mean that gravity exists.

If there were to be a theory of consciousness that doesn't mean consciousness exists. What phenomenon do you expect it to explain?

commonsense
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by commonsense » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:06 pm

Consciousness, if it exists, could explain cognitive behavior.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:03 pm
I do not assume that Consciousness Exists in terms of the ultimate answer to the question. The fact of it's non Existence could be the answer to the question. But of course I Speculate that it might Exist. That is the motivation for the whole study. To have falsifiability there must be a Theory. There are no Theories yet.
There appears to be some misunderstanding on your part as to how we use theories in practice.

Theories explain empirical phenomena.

The theory of gravity explains the phenomena of apples falling to the ground.

That doesn't mean that gravity exists. It means that 'gravity' is the explanation we give for for WHY the apple falls to the ground.
In future, it is entirely possible (even if unlikely) that a better theory comes about to explain how/why the apple falls to the ground.

If that were to happen then science would say that gravity doesn't exist.

But the point remains. The theory of gravity explains the apple falling. Having a theory of gravity doesn't mean that gravity exists.

If there were to be a theory of consciousness that doesn't mean consciousness exists. What phenomenon do you expect it to explain?
Gravity is the fact that the Apple falls. Science would not say Gravity does not exist if one theory was replaced by another but rather it would just have an revised Explanation. In fact this has happened with the understanding of Space-Time Curvature replacing Field Theory.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:36 am

commonsense wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 am
Consciousness is the nature of reality, just as consciousness is the nature of dream.
I agree, but just as a matter of curiosity, I was thinking about dreams we remember when we wake up v. the dreams we don’t remember at all. Were we conscious of the dreams we don’t remember in the morning?
I'm not really sure what you are talking about actually.

But as for this ''we'' you are talking about ..this ''we'' doesn't exist except as conceptual dream characters within the dream of separation arising within consciousness one without a second.

No dreamt character is conscious of itself as existing separate from what is already consciousness in which every dreamt character is arising and known within and to consciousness only.



In reality you never wake up because you never sleep. You are the empty Awareness of yourself, which is unborn and undying.

Concepts such as dying, sleeping, living, waking up, remembering, and the rest of knowledge is fictional dreamscape within the dream of separation.

No dreamt character is conscious of itself existing apart from the dreamer awareness it is appearing in, dream characters are empty images within consciousness, they are projections of consciousness itself one without a second, known only to consciousness the only reality there is.



.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:51 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Gravity is the fact that the Apple falls. Science would not say Gravity does not exist if one theory was replaced by another but rather it would just have an revised Explanation. In fact this has happened with the understanding of Space-Time Curvature replacing Field Theory.

Gravity among every other known concept is known to exist only in relation to it's knower, the owner of knowledge.

In reality there is no such such known owner of knowledge, therefore, knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality.

Concepts known have no reality in and of themselves, they are just ideas, a theoretical story told by no one believed to be real.

Concepts known are not real, because concepts have no knowledge of themselves, they are the knowledge that cannot be known.

Mind can go on inventing new stories about this and that forever, that is the nature of infinity in contant flux, it's constantly changing shape and form, forever informing itself of change, as no thing ever stays the same in any given moment, and is why physical substance of a particual thing cannot be pinned down or be said to exist in and of itself as a literally fixed unchanging thing...only that which knows each changing form and thing is fixed and changeless...and that knower is not a thing it knows.

Gravity like every other known concept known exists as an idea only within the knower..what is an idea? ..I've no idea. :idea: what is a knower? I have no knowing?

There is no knowledge of what is out-there....it's all spurious imagined speculation passed off as theoretical knowledge known by no thing in here.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:44 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:51 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Gravity is the fact that the Apple falls. Science would not say Gravity does not exist if one theory was replaced by another but rather it would just have an revised Explanation. In fact this has happened with the understanding of Space-Time Curvature replacing Field Theory.

Gravity among every other known concept is known to exist only in relation to it's knower, the owner of knowledge.

In reality there is no such such known owner of knowledge, therefore, knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality.

Concepts known have no reality in and of themselves, they are just ideas, a theoretical story told by no one believed to be real.

Concepts known are not real, because concepts have no knowledge of themselves, they are the knowledge that cannot be known.

Mind can go on inventing new stories about this and that forever, that is the nature of infinity in contant flux, it's constantly changing shape and form, forever informing itself of change, as no thing ever stays the same in any given moment, and is why physical substance of a particual thing cannot be pinned down or be said to exist in and of itself as a literally fixed unchanging thing...only that which knows each changing form and thing is fixed and changeless...and that knower is not a thing it knows.

Gravity like every other known concept known exists as an idea only within the knower..what is an idea? ..I've no idea. :idea: what is a knower? I have no knowing?

There is no knowledge of what is out-there....it's all spurious imagined speculation passed off as theoretical knowledge known by no thing in here.

.
It's Easy to say nothing exists and it's all just disembodied Concepts floating around in some Oneness concept. But it's very Hard to Explain how this could be true. I'm still working on it though ...

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Dontaskme
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:40 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:44 am
It's Easy to say nothing exists and it's all just disembodied Concepts floating around in some Oneness concept. But it's very Hard to Explain how this could be true. I'm still working on it though ...
But then of course What is TRUTH ?...but a perception of what I BE lieve

''To thine own SELF be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.''
William Shakespeare

Steve, you cannot get past the horizon of what is only and ever your own known consciousness..there is nothing outside of that knowing that you can possible know without stepping outside of your consciousness.

And that goes for every other apparent point particle of consciousness. Consciousness is also the physical because it conceptually knows the physical as it's own projection...there is no knowledge of the projector because it's everywhere all at once one without a second..it's already this immediate knowing one with itself.

An object is the subject objectifying itself...the object is never the subject because subject and object are ONE

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:03 pm

While it seems apparent to the knower that there is knowledge known conceptually within this immediate knowing knower one with the knowing. It is not known how this knowing knower knows what it knows because this knower knowing cannot be known by a concept is knows..meaning that all known knowledge is but conceptual understanding in no known knower or understander...in that knowing is one with itself only..you are that knowing.

This knower can delve into it's known conceptual realm of knowledge aka the DREAM OF SEPARATION...and know all sorts of things at it conceptually creates these things of it's own knowing.....HOWEVER, it cannot know the source of it's own dreaming nature for one very good reason, the knowers only existence is within it's own known dream...there is no real separation there between the knower and the known.

What is the source of source itself? add infinitum...

Knowing is not known by a concept..knowing is not the knowledge it knows, meaning all knowledge does is inform the illusory nature of knowledge itself for there is no known knowledge of the knower of all known knowledge, except in the illusory dream of separation that knowledge makes up ...the knower is never in the knowledge it knows, it is the knowing that cannot be known by the knowledge...this is the ultimate oxymoron.

There is no known knower, because the knower is not a known concept, and yet there is a knowing of every concept only because concepts don't know anything.

.

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