Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:06 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:03 am
Reality is magical not logical.
Reality may or may not be magical - I don't know, but the things we say about reality are logical.

Because logic is language. It comes from the Greek Λόγος.

speech, oration, discourse, quote, story, study, ratio, word, calculation, reason

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Logos is language is logic.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:11 am

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:06 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:03 am
Reality is magical not logical.
Reality may or may not be magical - I don't know, but the things we say about reality are logical.

Because logic is language. It comes from the Greek Logos.

speech, oration, discourse, quote, story, study, ratio, word, calculation, reason
Yes, it's magic logic.

surreptitious57
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:42 pm

Skepdick wrote:
As far as I am concerned there is only one realm of existence
I agree but human beings still like to split the realm up into smaller sub sections . These sub sections may be necessary
[ sometimes you dont want to study the whole forest just one tree in the forest ] but they dont actually exist in reality

physical / mental
quantum / classical
metaphysical / physical

The only ones that can exist in reality are

universe / multiverse
observable / non observable

But reality is still a single entity without division

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:44 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:42 pm
I agree but human beings still like to split the realm up into smaller sub sections . These sub sections may be necessary
[ sometimes you dont want to study the whole forest just one tree in the forest ] but they dont actually exist in reality

physical / mental
quantum / classical
metaphysical / physical

The only ones that can exist in reality are

universe / multiverse
observable / non observable

But reality is still a single entity without division
Just so long as you remember to put back together that which you dismantle with your mind.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:56 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:44 pm
Just so long as you remember to put back together that which you dismantle with your mind.
Scissors that cut a piece of cloth in half cannot be used to seamlessly join those two pieces of cloth back together again.

.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:05 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:56 pm
Scissors that cut a piece of cloth in half cannot be used to seamlessly join those two pieces of cloth back together again.
Then stop cutting.

surreptitious57
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:09 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Scissors that cut a piece of cloth in half cannot be used to seamlessly join those two pieces of cloth back together again
I dont need scissors because I have a puzzle and so the pieces can be taken apart and put back together as often as possible
Now I dont have all the pieces and never will but they do increase over time and that is where all my knowledge comes from

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:14 pm
The two Realms obviously Exist as separate things
Obviously how?
If Redness exists in the Physical World then is it made out of Energy, Matter, or is it some aspect of Space? If it is none of these things then it is not part of the Physical Universe as Science knows it.
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:14 pm
the question that arises is how do the two Realms interact.
And yet the question arose, and you communicated it to me. Therefore causality is a fact.
The only thing we know for sure is that there are Neural Correlates of Consciousness. We don't know anything about Consciousness itself that gives us the first clue that would let us say anything about Causality. Causality is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm
Therefore the "separation of realms" is obviously falsified.
The separation of Realms is the only thing that appears to be true. It may be wrong but it is where we are today. Nothing has been falsified.
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:14 pm
Now you understand the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
I don't actually. What you are pointing out is the Impossible Problem of Cartesian Dualism.

Between Hard problems and Impossible problems - I know which one I prefer.
I prefer the true Problem regardless of difficulty.
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:14 pm
You cannot get rid of the Hard Problem by denying the Existence of some sort of Conscious Realm or as I like to say Conscious Space.
I am not denying consciousness. I am denying its separateness. I am rejecting any conception of the "Hard Problem of Consciousness" which also requires me to solve the "Hard Problem of Magical Causality".

Occam's razor.
Consciousness does not have to be separate from the Physical. It could very well be found to be all in the Neurons. There is still the Hard Problem of Explaining how it is all in the Neurons.
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:14 pm
So is Redness a form of Energy, or is it a type of Matter, or is it some aspect of Space? If it is not one of these things then I think it is probably not something that is in the Physical World or it is at least some new concept of Physics. Redness … so familiar, yet so incomprehensible.
Redness is a word. A Woo Woo word for quacks.

What the word describes is a phenomenon. A consequence. An effect. And you can't study that phenomenon without having to conquer self-reference.

What's self-reference? Well! We have a theory!
You cannot make Redness go away by showing your contempt for it. I always say that Redness is a Phenomenon. It is a Conscious Phenomenon. Self reference or as I have said the 800lb Gorilla in the room is the Conscious Self. What is that? You're getting closer to understanding the Hard Problem now.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:57 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
If Redness exists
IF Redness exists? Why are you saying IF? Are saying that it's possible redness doesn't exist? Maybe you should explore that scenario also?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
in the Physical World
There's no need to say that. IF something exists, it exists in the physical world. Where else would it exist?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
then is it made out of Energy, Matter, or is it some aspect of Space?
It really doesn't matter what it's made of. It can be made of anything. If it exists - it has measurable/detectable consequences.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
If it is none of these things then it is not part of the Physical Universe as Science knows it.
This is not true. Consciousness doesn't have to be any of the things you've listed above in order to be part of the universe.

As far as science is concerned, anything that has testable/detectable consequences is part of the universe

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:34 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:57 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
If Redness exists
IF Redness exists? Why are you saying IF? Are saying that it's possible redness doesn't exist? Maybe you should explore that scenario also?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
in the Physical World
There's no need to say that. IF something exists, it exists in the physical world. Where else would it exist?
In the context of Consciousness we do not know if it Exists in the Physical World or Exists only in the Conscious World of our Minds.

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:57 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
then is it made out of Energy, Matter, or is it some aspect of Space?
It really doesn't matter what it's made of. It can be made of anything. If it exists - it has measurable/detectable consequences.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
If it is none of these things then it is not part of the Physical Universe as Science knows it.
This is not true. Consciousness doesn't have to be any of the things you've listed above in order to be part of the universe.

As far as science is concerned, anything that has testable/detectable consequences is part of the universe
Agreed. Consciousness might be found to be some new Phenomenon of the Physical Universe. Since It seems unlikely that something like Redness will be found to be made out of some type of Matter or some form of Energy or some aspect of Space, Science will have to acknowledge a new thing Called Redness as a thing in itself. But for now it seems like it is in some other Universe of Existence.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:49 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:34 pm
In the context of Consciousness we do not know if it Exists in the Physical World or Exists only in the Conscious World of our Minds.
Of course we know. You just introduced the word "minds" into the discussion in order to obfuscate the matter further.

P1. The Universe is ALL that exists ( Universe )
P2. Minds exist in the universe. (Minds ∈ Universe)
P3. Consciousness exists in minds (Consciousness ∈ Minds)
C. Therefore Consciousness exists in the Universe. (Consciousnes ∈ Universe)

Which part of Logic 101 is confusing you here?

You seem committed to making the Cartesian Dualism error like a 3 year old is committed to putting their hand on the hot stove over and over.

Do you even possess the instinct of learning from your mistakes?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
Agreed. Consciousness might be found to be some new Phenomenon of the Physical Universe.
OK... you are very confused. In the previous paragraph you were arguing against this very sentence. Now you are agreeing. It's must be hard being a sophist.

We can't find consciousness to be any "newer a phenomenon" than it already is. Consciousness is a phenomenon.

A phenomenon is defined as: a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.

Consciousness doesn't get any more "phenomenal" than it already is.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
Since It seems unlikely that something like Redness will be found to be made out of some type of Matter or some form of Energy or some aspect of Space, Science will have to acknowledge a new thing Called Redness as a thing in itself.
Well, you are doing science - acknowledge it then. If redness is a noumenon then it can't be a phenomenon, then you can't study it via the scientific method.

It seems you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to explain redness, but you don't want to study it phenomenologically. How do you want to study it then?

But where your confusion really shines: if you already have direct and privileged access to a noumenon, then what explanation are you looking for?

A known noumenon is a contradiction of terms.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:17 am

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:05 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:56 pm
Scissors that cut a piece of cloth in half cannot be used to seamlessly join those two pieces of cloth back together again.
Then stop cutting.
I'm using the word 'scissors' as a synonym for MIND

The mind cuts reality in two ''apparently'' . In reality the mind has no intention to split into many.

Intention is the rider of the will. Free will simply means there is no intention behind any action. Action is one singular movement. Only reactions are known via knowledge which is nothing more than 'thought' informing the illusory nature of reality.

"The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflections. The water has no mind to receive their images."

The universe is not self-conscious. Humans are. Consciousness knows the human concept, the human concept does not know consciousness. For the known know nothing.

In reality Life just happens with no intention behind it. Everything is like this.



.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:47 am

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:49 pm

A known noumenon is a contradiction of terms.
Then stop contradicting yourself, get out of your own way, step aside there is no room in here for two.

Noumenon - means no u me non

no u no me ..ok?


Noumenon, plural Noumena...in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, the thing-in-itself as opposed to what Kant called the phenomenon the thing as it appears to an observer. In other words: Phenomena is Noumena phenomenalizing.

The thing observed gives birth to the observer. For without the thing there is no observer. The observer gives birth to the thing observed. For without the observer there is no thing. Knowledge informs observer and observed are One in the exact same instant, which is equal to Zero instantaneously manifesting all at once one without a second.. It's total magic that logic can't touch.

Noumenon is not known. Noumenon is the knowing that cannot be known. The known no nothing. Knowledge informs the ilusory nature of reality to be ONE singular movement that no other thing can stop except as 'thought' which is an illusory freeze framing of reality.
The knowing is done in the moment and the content of the known is known in the moment only after knowing is actually done or is being done. The KNOWN is of the past which can only exist in the present, and the present is all there is infinitely for eternity.
.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:07 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:49 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:34 pm
In the context of Consciousness we do not know if it Exists in the Physical World or Exists only in the Conscious World of our Minds.
Of course we know. You just introduced the word "minds" into the discussion in order to obfuscate the matter further.

P1. The Universe is ALL that exists ( Universe )
P2. Minds exist in the universe. (Minds ∈ Universe)
P3. Consciousness exists in minds (Consciousness ∈ Minds)
C. Therefore Consciousness exists in the Universe. (Consciousnes ∈ Universe)

Which part of Logic 101 is confusing you here?

You seem committed to making the Cartesian Dualism error like a 3 year old is committed to putting their hand on the hot stove over and over.

Do you even possess the instinct of learning from your mistakes?
That's why I distinguish a Physical Universe and a separate Conscious Universe. When you say simply Universe you are implying Physical Universe. So your whole logical construction collapses.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:49 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
Agreed. Consciousness might be found to be some new Phenomenon of the Physical Universe.
OK... you are very confused. In the previous paragraph you were arguing against this very sentence. Now you are agreeing. It's must be hard being a sophist.
Sentence 1: In the context of Consciousness we do not know if it Exists in the Physical World or Exists only in the Conscious World of our Minds.
Sentence 2: Consciousness might be found to be some new Phenomenon of the Physical Universe.

In 1 I say we don't know if it's in the PW or the CW.
Then I say it might be in the PW in 2.

I think you don't really know what the word "might" means.
1 and 2 are perfectly coherent.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:49 pm
We can't find consciousness to be any "newer a phenomenon" than it already is. Consciousness is a phenomenon.

A phenomenon is defined as: a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.

Consciousness doesn't get any more "phenomenal" than it already is.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:31 pm
Since It seems unlikely that something like Redness will be found to be made out of some type of Matter or some form of Energy or some aspect of Space, Science will have to acknowledge a new thing Called Redness as a thing in itself.
Well, you are doing science - acknowledge it then. If redness is a noumenon then it can't be a phenomenon, then you can't study it via the scientific method.

It seems you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to explain redness, but you don't want to study it phenomenologically. How do you want to study it then?

But where your confusion really shines: if you already have direct and privileged access to a noumenon, then what explanation are you looking for?

A known noumenon is a contradiction of terms.
That's just silly. Redness is a Thing In Itself so it could be a Kantian Noumenon. But it most certainly is also a Phenomenon that happens in the Conscious Mind.

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