Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:31 am

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:24 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am
I think of this more in terms of Conscious Experience like the Experience of Redness. I don't know, and nobody knows, but I Speculate that it may be possible to measure the actual Redness Experience of an individual Conscious Mind.
Are you aware of the fact that all measurements are relative? If you are going to measure 'redness' - what are you going to measure it in relation to?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am
So yes, I think there are separate Conscious Minds, but I don't know that. It is a direction for study to take. Without knowing what Conscious Experience is, all possibilities are still on the table.
Observe: you fail to suggest a methodology/strategy/approach for learning/discovering/answering the question: What is experience?

All you are doing is asking questions. You don't have any good ideas on how to even begin answering them...
The whole industry of Science itself does not know How to Begin Answering any question involving Conscious Experience.

Skepdick
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:31 am
The whole industry of Science itself does not know How to Begin Answering any question involving Conscious Experience.
Indeed, the industry of science takes experience for granted.

But you don't have to accept science's dogma.

You are asking the question. Surely you have some idea on how to approach answering it without taking experience for granted?
Or are you simply in the business of asking questions that other people must answer for you?

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:43 am

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:24 am
All you are doing is asking questions. You don't have any good ideas on how to even begin answering them...
You seem to be saying that I need to Sort Of Know the answer before I even ask the question. If someone even Sort Of Knew the answer to this it would be a Global News event and the Sort Of Knower would receive World wide acclaim.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 7076
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:46 am

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:59 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am
That's more 'thought'

You can't reach the knower of 'thought' by piling on more 'thought'
I am not piling on more thought. I just gave it a label. A name we can both use in conversation.

Something that rolls off the tongue easier than "that which knows thought".
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am
In the same context you can't reach the blank screen of a canvas by adding more paint.
And who says I am trying to "reach" anything? That's not what language is for...
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am
What knows ''thought'' ??
The knower of thought knows thought. This is as far as we are going to go conceptually.

You are trying to tell me something ABOUT the "knower of thought".
I know what you are talking about, but I don't know what you are trying to tell me about it.

You've totally derailed off the track here, like you seem to have an amazing talent for derailing and twisting conversations beyond all reasonable capacity to understand them, you seem to have perfected this talent down to a fine art. I have no idea what you are talking about now.
I'm talking about the knower of thought, not thought itself.

I'm lost as to what you want me to say to you next, we are talking about the hard problem of consciousness that seems to be a reality for some people...but then not for others. Some people just know the simplicity that consciousness is not a concept known, and yet is the knower of all concepts.. so that which is not a concept can never be approached or measured by a known concept because the known know nothing, concepts are known by no concept.. they are already being known..

I'm asking you to see that as well, not deny it. I'm not trying to tell you anything about the knower, but maybe just acknowledge consciousness is not a concept..and that only concepts can be known...by consciousness only...and not the concept known...is this subject to difficult for you?

How do you measure that which has has never been born or even showed up...who is going to pop up out of this nothingness that is consciousness and do the honours of revealing what is consciousness by putting consciousness inside a jar for all to look at? that would be like putting gravity in a jar and saying hey everyone...look at this gravity, same goes for thoughts..you can't put them in a jar and hold them up to face and look at them either.



.

Skepdick
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:46 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:43 am
You seem to be saying that I need to Sort Of Know the answer before I even ask the question.
No. I am not saying that.

I imagine figuring out the answer is very, very complex (which is why it's taking so long).
It is so complex, in fact that we require N steps between asking the question and obtaining the correct answer (where N is a very big number).

I am not asking you to tell me how many steps there are.
I am not asking you to tell me what the final step before the answer is.
I am not asking you to tell me what the answer itself is
I am not asking you to tell me how long it might take to obtain the answer.
I am not asking you to tell me sort of anything about the answer.

I am asking you to tell me what the first step is after asking the question.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:54 am

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:31 am
The whole industry of Science itself does not know How to Begin Answering any question involving Conscious Experience.
Indeed, the industry of science takes experience for granted.

But you don't have to accept science's dogma.

You are asking the question. Surely you have some idea on how to approach answering it without taking experience for granted?
Or are you simply in the business of asking questions that other people must answer for you?
I ask the question after 20 years of trying to answer it myself with my own studies. I give up, I can't answer it, so I ask the World what the answer is. All I get is Silence, Diversions, Obfuscations, or Pompous Claims that the question is already answered. I would put you in the Diversionary category.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:56 am

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:46 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:43 am
You seem to be saying that I need to Sort Of Know the answer before I even ask the question.
No. I am not saying that.

I imagine figuring out the answer is very, very complex (which is why it's taking so long).
It is so complex, in fact that we require N steps between asking the question and obtaining the correct answer (where N is a very big number).

I am not asking you to tell me how many steps there are.
I am not asking you to tell me what the final step before the answer is.
I am not asking you to tell me what the answer itself is
I am not asking you to tell me how long it might take to obtain the answer.
I am not asking you to tell me sort of anything about the answer.

I am asking you to tell me what the first step is after asking the question.
I repeat:

I ask the question after 20 years of trying to answer it myself with my own studies. I give up, I can't answer it, so I ask the World what the answer is. All I get is Silence, Diversions, Obfuscations, or Pompous Claims that the question is already answered. I would put you in the Diversionary category.

Skepdick
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:57 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:54 am
I ask the question after 20 years of trying to answer it myself with my own studies. I give up, I can't answer it
Well, did you arrive at any wrong answers? How many?

You may not have answered the question, but did you make any progress that we need to know about?
Any work that you've left behind where we can pick up from?

What did you try?
What worked?
What didn't work?
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 7076
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:58 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:31 am
The whole industry of Science itself does not know How to Begin Answering any question involving Conscious Experience.
That's because there is no one asking the question. If there was then it would also have the answer. Can't have a question without an answer, else the question wouldn't even arise, all questions arise based on the knowledge that is already available created by this false sense of separate self who invented it.

Only the sense of a separate self can ask questions, ...there is no such entity as a separate knowing entity except the belief via the thought there is...already couched within the consciousness you are that is all pervading as embodied awareness. There is an awareness of self as a conceptually known body, but there is no way awareness can experience itself as the concept self it is aware of...for there is no awareness in a concept to experience itself.

.

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:23 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:59 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:43 pm
Just look it up! idiot.
I don't have to. I used it apropos.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:14 pm
Green and Red are essentially different, a difference that no number system can describe.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
In other words no science, no number system, no classification system could have told Mary what Red LOOKS LIKE, until she saw it with her own eyes.
You went from qualifying the difference between 'green' and 'red' (which science can do), to telling Mary what 'red' looks like (which science can't do).

That's a non-sequitur. Idiot.
I was not trying to make a conclusion. I was demonstrating the DIFFERENCE between what science CAN do and what it CANNOT fucking do you brain dead fuckwit.

Science can only QUANTIFY the difference between red and green it CANNOT show the qualitative difference.
NOW fuck the hell off

Skepdick
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:00 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:23 pm
I was not trying to make a conclusion. I was demonstrating the DIFFERENCE between what science CAN do and what it CANNOT fucking do you brain dead fuckwit.

Science can only QUANTIFY the difference between red and green it CANNOT show the qualitative difference.
NOW fuck the hell off
You can't qualify the difference between red and green either, you dimwit.

All you can say about the difference between 'red' and 'green' is that there is one!

Which is precisely the point I was making right here:
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:55 pm
It simply begs the question: What is the QUALITATIVE difference between red and green?
Is red different from green? Yes.

That's a quantification! It's 1 bit of information

As a binary digit, the bit represents a logical value, having only one of two values. It may be physically implemented with a two-state device. These state values are most commonly represented as either 0 or 1, but other representations such as true/false, yes/no, +/−, or on/off are possible.

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:22 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:00 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:23 pm
I was not trying to make a conclusion. I was demonstrating the DIFFERENCE between what science CAN do and what it CANNOT fucking do you brain dead fuckwit.

Science can only QUANTIFY the difference between red and green it CANNOT show the qualitative difference.
NOW fuck the hell off
You can't qualify the difference between red and green either, you dimwit.
No you are the dimwit.
This is what I've been saying all along,
Colours are qualia.

Skepdick
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:35 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:22 pm
No you are the dimwit.
This is what I've been saying all along,
Colours are qualia.
It doesn't matter whether you label them as 'qualia' or 'testicles'. Experience happens before linguistic or categorical designation.

All that matters is whether you can distinguish one color from another color.

Is this █████ the same color as this █████ ? Can you detect a difference?

That's a yes/no question. Quantified as "1 bit of information".

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:35 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:22 pm
No you are the dimwit.
This is what I've been saying all along,
Colours are qualia.
It doesn't matter whether you label them as 'qualia' or 'testicles'. Experience happens before linguistic or categorical designation.

All that matters is whether you can distinguish one color from another color.

Is this █████ the same color as this █████ ? Can you detect a difference?

That's a yes/no question. Quantified as "1 bit of information".
I think you might want to direct your verbal diarrhoea at another person.

Skepdick
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:50 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:40 pm
I think you might want to direct your verbal diarrhoea at another person.
I apologise for trying to educate you.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests