Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:59 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:43 pm
Just look it up! idiot.
I don't have to. I used it apropos.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:14 pm
Green and Red are essentially different, a difference that no number system can describe.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
In other words no science, no number system, no classification system could have told Mary what Red LOOKS LIKE, until she saw it with her own eyes.
You went from qualifying the difference between 'green' and 'red' (which science can do), to telling Mary what 'red' looks like (which science can't do).

That's a non-sequitur. Idiot.
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:40 pm
What knows that ''thought''?
The thinking knower.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:36 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:25 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:18 pm

2nd time now. Science never has and never will discover what things ARE.

Science only discovers how things behave/interact in relation to other things.
I release Science from that Box.
Yet you offer nothing better as a way of learning about the world?

Like I said: you want answers, but you have no strategy, or even a vaguest of ideas on how to get them.
My strategy for getting answers is asking questions.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:37 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:02 pm


Steve, do you think that if Science could see Consciousness then maybe that might help them Understand what it is?

.
I have thought that Science will some day be able to measure actual Conscious Experience, not just the Neural Correlates of Experience. When Science can do that Science will not only be helped by that but Science will have unlocked the door to Consciousness. This is just Speculation but it is all we can do given the state of our understanding of Consciousness at this time.
What about Consciousness, can Science see it..to then known exactly what it is they are measuring?

What I mean is, can Science know what anything is unless they've first seen / or looked at it?

.
Science can Detect all kinds of things without Seeing.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:45 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:36 pm
My strategy for getting answers is asking questions.
Is it working?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:56 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:22 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:17 pm
Ok, so what KNOWS the phenomenon labeled ''Consciousness''?
42.

The first problem of "consciousness" (as far as I can tell) is to determine whether it's an actual phenomenon, or if it's just a linguistic artefact.

The simplest thought experiment goes like this: Suppose that consciousness does exist, what change do you expect to observe in the universe if consciousness suddenly disappeared?
How can something like Redness be a linguistic artefact? If Consciousness would disappear then we would disappear because we are made out of Consciousness and Conscious Experience. Our Physical Bodies would become Zombies that are Blind, Deaf, and etc.. The Zombies wouldn't even want to eat each other because they would not be able to feel Hunger.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:07 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:45 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:36 pm
My strategy for getting answers is asking questions.
Is it working?
I spent 20 years reading up on Philosophy and then Brain Physiology. The process involved asking questions and getting answers about things. I have learned a lot so yes it has been working up until Philosophy and Brain Physiology both hit a Brick Wall when it comes to the final question, Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens in the Brain.
2) An Experience of Redness happens in the Mind.

How does 1 produce or at least lead to 2?

My strategy has worked for 20 years and I think it will eventually work for the final question.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:08 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:56 pm
If Consciousness would disappear then we would disappear because we are made out of Consciousness and Conscious Experience.
What's the difference between 'experience' and 'conscious experience'?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:36 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:56 pm
If Consciousness would disappear then we would disappear because we are made out of Consciousness and Conscious Experience.
What's the difference between 'experience' and 'conscious experience'?
I like to say Conscious Experience to emphasize that it is a Conscious Phenomenon and not a Physical Phenomenon. But it is essentially the same thing. I also like to say Conscious Mind to distinguish it from the Physical Mind which is the Brain.

I Like Sushu
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by I Like Sushu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:28 am

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:04 pm
Here's roughly what went through Mary's mind at this very moment.

1. I have never experienced this color before.
2. I didn't know apples were this color (because all the apples I ever saw were black&white!)
3. I need to give this color-experience a name, so I am going to call it .... apply!

The word 'red' doesn't exist in Mary's vocabulary. It's in the narrator's vocabulary.
In other words no science, no number system, no classification system could have told Mary what Red LOOKS LIKE, until she saw it with her own eyes.
And I have to point out that there is no way to tell if what you see when you see red is the same as I see when I see red. Though we can agree that it is red, we are not able know that we observe the same quality.

This is not difficult.
Children get this.
Perhaps you are unaware that the fella that came up with this thought experiment eventually admitted he was wrong (he isn’t a child though):

https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/p ... eaton2.htm

The issue, as I’ve mention once or twice (or more than that) already, is that it’s a matter of word meaning - epistemic at its heart.

There is a bloody good reason I prefer to take this problem on in a tangental manner - phenomenologically. This is because ‘phenomenology’ isn’t concerned about any kind of ‘physicality’. Everything is an object of experience, what isn’t we have nothing to say about directly. The rest is mostly a poor man’s word game.

I should add that types like Dennett don’t ‘deny conscious experience’ in any way the layman (most people here) seem to think. I’ve seen people throwing around Chalmers’ ideas on other forums too and telling Chalmers (who made a visit) that he didn’t know what he was talking about with Chlamers (good on him) trying to point out the subtleties of his ‘zombie world’.

Note: Just to be clear I don’t think the thought experiment does much more than reveal the misuse of technical language by smuggling in ‘intuition’ (see thread above) and in a world fo substance and measure we’re able to say quite a lot about things through a ‘physicalist lens’; as it is, in terms of reality, the very definition of what ‘exists’ in a concrete empirical sense - it’s still limited in scope though (obviously!) and we do get glimpses through mathematics into an ‘abstract space’, but this can only be KNOWN through experience NOT without experience. The experience IS knowledge, and just because we can say ‘knowledge if experience’, or ‘experience of knowledge’ it doesn’t mean it means anything useful; I could also say ‘yellow fish spaghetti under the wind of green decent, beyond the makeshift rumble of mice thoughts’ ... it’s a grammatically structured sentence, but that doesn’t make it semantically applicable to anyone without a large capacity for creative thought and an abstract artistic sense (eg. we can express sounds in paintings).

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:49 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 pm
What about Consciousness, can Science see it..to then known exactly what it is they are measuring?
What I mean is, can Science know what anything is unless they've first seen / or looked at it?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:37 pm
Science can Detect all kinds of things without Seeing
By saying consciousnesss is a possible thing to be detected implies consciousness is a thing in and of itself outside of the conscious scientist attempting to detect it.

SO then supposing the detection of consciousness is found by a conscious scientist ..even if they can't see it, they'll still have to know it's there because they've detected it...so where will the actual location of the found consciousness by detection present itself as known by the scientist?
In what shape or form will consciousness show up as...even if they can't see it, they'd still have to know it is there else they wouldn't be able to claim they'd found it without knowing it.

So then the detected consciousness would have to present itself outside of the scientists own consciousness before it could be known to be there...because to find a thing called consciousness by detection would need a conscious observer to acknowledge it's actual detection..so that implies the detected consciousness would have to be outside of a scientists own consciousness...is that what you are saying?

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:07 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:40 pm
What knows that ''thought''?
The thinking knower.
That's more 'thought'

You can't reach the knower of 'thought' by piling on more 'thought'

In the same context you can't reach the blank screen of a canvas by adding more paint.

What knows ''thought'' ??

.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:59 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am
That's more 'thought'

You can't reach the knower of 'thought' by piling on more 'thought'
I am not piling on more thought. I just gave it a label. A name we can both use in conversation.

Something that rolls off the tongue easier than "that which knows thought".
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am
In the same context you can't reach the blank screen of a canvas by adding more paint.
And who says I am trying to "reach" anything? That's not what language is for...
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 am
What knows ''thought'' ??
The knower of thought knows thought. This is as far as we are going to go conceptually.

You are trying to tell me something ABOUT the "knower of thought".
I know what you are talking about, but I don't know what you are trying to tell me about it.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:49 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 pm
What about Consciousness, can Science see it..to then known exactly what it is they are measuring?
What I mean is, can Science know what anything is unless they've first seen / or looked at it?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:37 pm
Science can Detect all kinds of things without Seeing
By saying consciousnesss is a possible thing to be detected implies consciousness is a thing in and of itself outside of the conscious scientist attempting to detect it.

SO then supposing the detection of consciousness is found by a conscious scientist ..even if they can't see it, they'll still have to know it's there because they've detected it...so where will the actual location of the found consciousness by detection present itself as known by the scientist?
In what shape or form will consciousness show up as...even if they can't see it, they'd still have to know it is there else they wouldn't be able to claim they'd found it without knowing it.

So then the detected consciousness would have to present itself outside of the scientists own consciousness before it could be known to be there...because to find a thing called consciousness by detection would need a conscious observer to acknowledge it's actual detection..so that implies the detected consciousness would have to be outside of a scientists own consciousness...is that what you are saying?

.
I think of this more in terms of Conscious Experience like the Experience of Redness. I don't know, and nobody knows, but I Speculate that it may be possible to measure the actual Redness Experience of an individual Conscious Mind. So yes, I think there are separate Conscious Minds, but I don't know that. It is a direction for study to take. Without knowing what Conscious Experience is, all possibilities are still on the table.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:24 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am
I think of this more in terms of Conscious Experience like the Experience of Redness. I don't know, and nobody knows, but I Speculate that it may be possible to measure the actual Redness Experience of an individual Conscious Mind.
Are you aware of the fact that all measurements are relative to a frame of reference? If you are going to measure 'redness' - what reference frame are you going to measure it in relation to?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am
So yes, I think there are separate Conscious Minds, but I don't know that. It is a direction for study to take. Without knowing what Conscious Experience is, all possibilities are still on the table.
Observe: you fail to suggest a methodology/strategy/approach for learning/discovering/answering the question: What is experience?

All you are doing is asking questions. You don't have any good ideas on how to even begin answering them...

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