Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Sculptor
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:52 pm You can talk about RGB numbers, or wavelengths of light till you are blue in the face, but the difference between red and green is not just quantitative it is QUALITATIVE.
We see different things across the spectrum that no amount of quantifying can explain or describe.

There is a good thought experiment about this concerning a scientist called Mary.
I don't care about your philosophistry analysis.

It simply begs the question: What is the QUALITATIVE difference between red and green?
That's the fucking point!

Green and Red are essentially different, a difference that no number system can describe.
If fact I would go so far as to suggest that no one can actually describe the difference between them.
Give it a bloody try!
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:11 pm I don't understand how wanting to understand a particular thing is Circular. I reject the premise that I absolutely must define Understanding before I can Understand something. That's putting the cart before the horse. There is no One definition of Understanding. Maybe you are hung up on the internal Feeling of Understanding. The Feeling of Understanding is a different thing from the Understanding itself.
I am not hung up on anything other than the fact that both 'seeing' and 'understanding' are processes that take place in your head.

You want to understand how seeing (color) works.
But you don't want to understand how understanding (things) works.
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:14 pm That's the fucking point!

Green and Red are essentially different, a difference that no number system can describe.
If fact I would go so far as to suggest that no one can actually describe the difference between them.
Give it a bloody try!
Wanna bet?

The difference between Green and Red is most definitely quantifiable/measurable and therefore describable by numbers.

Here's how I would go about it.

1. I give you a bunch of things of various colors evenly distributed across the visible spectrum. The more - the better!
2. I ask you to sort those things into three categories for me:
A. Green
B. Red
C. Other
3. Repeat experiment 1000 times, with different people.

At the end of this exercise I would have enough data to give you statistical distributions for HOW people use the words 'red' and 'green'.
Mapped to wavelengths and everything.
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:16 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:11 pm I don't understand how wanting to understand a particular thing is Circular. I reject the premise that I absolutely must define Understanding before I can Understand something. That's putting the cart before the horse. There is no One definition of Understanding. Maybe you are hung up on the internal Feeling of Understanding. The Feeling of Understanding is a different thing from the Understanding itself.
I am not hung up on anything other than the fact that both 'seeing' and 'understanding' are processes that take place in your head.

You want to understand how seeing (color) works.
But you don't want to understand how understanding (things) works.
When I understand I then know how understanding works.
Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm When I understand I then know how understanding works.
How do you verify that you understand quantum physics?
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:22 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm When I understand I then know how understanding works.
How do you verify that you understand quantum physics?
I don't need to verify that I understand Quantum Physics. I simply understand it. I think the issue you are stuck on is the fact that we cannot describe Conscious Phenomena with Language. There is no way for me to describe the Redness that I Experience with language. There is no way for me to describe my Understanding with Language. When we discover a new way of Understanding that will let us Understand Consciousness then we can talk about it. You've got to stop putting carts before horses.
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:31 pm I don't need to verify that I understand Quantum Physics. I simply understand it.
Bullshit.

Give me an algorithm/equation to solve the chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen.
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:31 pm I think the issue you are stuck on is the fact that we cannot describe Conscious Phenomena with Language. There is no way for me to describe the Redness that I Experience with language. There is no way for me to describe my Understanding with Language. When we discover a new way of Understanding that will let us Understand Consciousness then we can talk about it. You've got to stop putting carts before horses.
No, the issue I am stuck on is that you are paying lip service to the scientific method, whereas I am asking you to apply it recursively.

You have made a claim about reality.
A claim about the state of your own epistemology.

Hypothesis 1: I understand quantum physics.
Alternative hypothesis: I don't understand quantum physics.

What would be sufficient evidence for the alternative hypothesis?

Quite literally - I am asking you to tell us how you might prove yourself wrong.

Self-skepticism 101.
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Sculptor
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:14 pm That's the fucking point!

Green and Red are essentially different, a difference that no number system can describe.
If fact I would go so far as to suggest that no one can actually describe the difference between them.
Give it a bloody try!
Wanna bet?

The difference between Green and Red is most definitely quantifiable/measurable and therefore describable by numbers.

Here's how I would go about it.

1. I give you a bunch of things of various colors evenly distributed across the visible spectrum. The more - the better!
2. I ask you to sort those things into three categories for me:
A. Green
B. Red
C. Other
3. Repeat experiment 1000 times, with different people.

At the end of this exercise I would have enough data to give you statistical distributions for HOW people use the words 'red' and 'green'.
Mapped to wavelengths and everything.
Bullshit.
All you have it subjective.
What is the difference?

https://philosophynow.org/issues/99/What_Did_Mary_Know
Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:51 pm Bullshit.
All you have it subjective.
All I have. ALL I HAVE?

I have given you a scientifically valid procedure that can produce statistically significant results which would map the range of 'red' and 'green' experiences to objective wavelengths.

I am literally grounding the meaning of the 'red' and 'green' experience, and you are dismissing it as 'subjective'. If that's not good enough, then surely you must have a better idea?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:51 pm What is the difference?
The difference is the distance between the statistical means for the 'red' and 'green' distributions.

Which is more than you can say about it in English!
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick »

Here's roughly what went through Mary's mind at this very moment.

1. I have never experienced this color before.
2. I didn't know apples were this color (because all the apples I ever saw were black&white!)
3. I need to give this color-experience a name, so I am going to call it .... apply!

The word 'red' doesn't exist in Mary's vocabulary. It's in the narrator's vocabulary.
Last edited by Skepdick on Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:12 am You cannot know you are conscious until another one informs you you exist in the form of your name.
Yeah right. Have a nice day.
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by surreptitious57 »

Sculptor wrote:
Green and Red are essentially different a difference that no number system can describe
If fact I would go so far as to suggest that no one can actually describe the difference between them
The number system can definitely describe the difference because they will appear as different frequencies on the electromagnetic spectrum
Also all electromagnetic phenomena propagate at the speed of light in vacuum where frequency and wavelength are inversely proportional to
each other [ the shorter the frequency the longer the wavelength and vice versa ]
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Sculptor
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor »

surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:47 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Green and Red are essentially different a difference that no number system can describe
If fact I would go so far as to suggest that no one can actually describe the difference between them
The number system can definitely describe the difference because they will appear as different frequencies on the electromagnetic spectrum
Also all electromagnetic phenomena propagate at the speed of light in vacuum where frequency and wavelength are inversely proportional to
each other [ the shorter the frequency the longer the wavelength and vice versa ]
Rubbish.
All you have is numbers. They cannot tell you what red is like, since it is unlike other things. Colours are not like anything you can compare.
Red has a different quality to green of blue that no number can describe.
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by I Like Sushu »

Steve -
The error in what you have just said is that you are trying to take the language of Conscious Phenomenon and apply it to Physical Phenomenon. The Wavelength of a particular pure frequency of Electromagnetic Energy is a definite number, say 670 for Red Light. It does not make sense to talk about Wavelengthness.
If that’s what you wish to believe fair enough. Next time at least say ‘it seems like you are saying’.

Every attempt I’ve made has resulted in a dead-end. If I think of another way of to attempt to reach some common ground in the future I’ll post here. Until then, have fun :)
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:04 pm
Here's roughly what went through Mary's mind at this very moment.

1. I have never experienced this color before.
2. I didn't know apples were this color (because all the apples I ever saw were black&white!)
3. I need to give this color-experience a name, so I am going to call it .... apply!

The word 'red' doesn't exist in Mary's vocabulary. It's in the narrator's vocabulary.
In other words no science, no number system, no classification system could have told Mary what Red LOOKS LIKE, until she saw it with her own eyes.
And I have to point out that there is no way to tell if what you see when you see red is the same as I see when I see red. Though we can agree that it is red, we are not able know that we observe the same quality.

This is not difficult.
Children get this.
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