Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:15 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:10 am
Steve..what about this idea....There isn't even any colour separate from it's source which is invisible pure transparent white light...(source unknown)

Colour is an optical illusion..a mirage appearance of invisible transparent LIGHT. Colour can only owe it's existence to PURE WHITE LIGHT
Colour has no existence in and of itself, it's made of it's source, aka INVISIBLE WHITE LIGHT.

In being invisible is how I am able to see ..via constrast...as and through an object known/seen...aka (mind/body mechanism) aka (duality) which is a mirage appearance within source itself aka Invisible Light (source unknown)

I or light is just another concept for Consciousness.

In being invisible is how Consciousness is able to see ..via contrast...as and through an object known/seen...aka (mind/body mechanism) aka (duality) which is a mirage appearance within Invisible Light (source unknown)

There is no centre of Consciousness that can be located as in being lots of locatable individual little consciousnesses..because it's invisible, it's everywhere all at once... like light.

The seen Steve, cannot and does not and has never existed separate from the seer. The seer is not the object it sees, the object is only KNOWN to the seer via contrast...the seer which cannot be seen by the object it sees... for the object is being seen, and that which is seen cannot itself see...for objects do not exist as separate things in and of themselves, they owe their illusory existence to the light only, the seen is an optical illusion of the only seer there is which is invisible LIGHT.



No Consciousness sees or knows LIGHT. IT IS the LIGHT...seeing and knowing itself objectively as and through colour. There is no colour aka contrast without the backlight of light itself aka the source of all colour...giving colour it's identity, as an illusory appearance of invisible white light...via the contrast.

In the absence of colour there is blackness, but even blackness is only possible because of LIGHT, light being the shadow castor.

The LIGHT that casts no shadow ON ITSELF...is the castor of all shadows...aka colour / including black.

.
The only thing that is certain is that the Light that we have always Seen is generated by the Brain/Mind mechanism that is internal to what we are. So logically the Light that we have always Seen is actually part of what we are. The Light we have always Seen is not the external Electromagnetic Phenomenon but rather the Light we have always Seen is internal to us and is generated by us. I comprehend this as separately happening within each Bran/Mind in the Universe. Sorry but I am still working on the Oneness thing.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:19 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:05 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:51 pm
Red Electromagnetic Light has many Properties and one of them is Wavelength. However, Red Electromagnetic Light has no Property of Redness. The Redness is a creation of the Brain/Mind mechanism. The Brain/Mind mechanism presents the Redness Experience to us as a Surrogate for the Red Electromagnetic Light so that we can Detect the Red Electromagnetic Light.
Steve, which wavelength is 'The Red Electromagnetic Light'?

You continue to ignore the fact that your mind associates a plethora of wavelengths with the experience of 'Redness'.
I don't really understand the problem with that because there in fact are a whole plethora of Wavelengths that Look Red.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:23 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:19 pm
I don't really understand the problem with that because there in fact are a whole plethora of Wavelengths that Look Red.
Right! So you are calling multiple things by the same name. Does this remind you of a logical fallacy of sorts?

Equivocation perhaps?

In logic, equivocation ('calling two different things by the same name') is an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses throughout an argument leading to a false conclusion.

Or from computer science - it's an aggregate function

In database management an aggregate function or aggregation function is a function where the values of multiple rows are grouped together to form a single summary value.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:39 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:14 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:38 pm
What you See is also highly dependent on the quality of your Monitor and Video Card. But the question is, regardless of which Band you are looking at: How does your Conscious Mind let you See that Color? Also, what are these Colors as things in themselves? Don't get distracted by the numbers just concentrate on the Colors themselves as Phenomena that exist somehow in the Universe we live in. These Color Band Phenomena may exist only in our Conscious Minds and not in the Physical Universe, but they somehow do exist and must be Explained.
There is a circularity in your way of reasoning. I don't think I can help you out of it.

The question that you need to focus on (that you have dismissed) is this: How many colors can you see?

It is THE most important question because it explains how your mind quantizes light waves.
If you just vary the Wavelength there are very few distinguishable Colors. The number of Colors counted this way will be the number of Colors in the Rainbow. These are the pure Wavelength Colors. Any other Colors that you might See are mixtures of varying magnitudes of these Colors. The normal Human Eye is a three Color detection system. So effectively you can only really Detect 3 Colors. But your Brain/Mind mechanism mixes varying magnitudes of the 3 Colors into all the Colors that you can See. And there probably is Quantization involved in the Brain/Mind mechanism. A Quantization step for a Cone receptor could be at the single Photon level so the number of Colors could be vast. The number of Colors for 24 bit Video system is 256 * 256 * 256 = 16777216. But it is doubtful that any normal Monitor will be able to display this many Colors due to their own internal quantization. But what is the point of all this? The question is How, I repeat How, do we See any of these Colors in the first place?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:43 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:23 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:19 pm
I don't really understand the problem with that because there in fact are a whole plethora of Wavelengths that Look Red.
Right! So you are calling multiple things by the same name. Does this remind you of a logical fallacy of sorts?

Equivocation perhaps?

In logic, equivocation ('calling two different things by the same name') is an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses throughout an argument leading to a false conclusion.

Or from computer science - it's an aggregate function

In database management an aggregate function or aggregation function is a function where the values of multiple rows are grouped together to form a single summary value.
A Band of Electromagnetic Wavelengths do in fact seem to have the same Redness. It's not about the Electromagnetics its about How do we See that Redness that the Brain/Mind creates for us?

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:43 pm
A Band of Electromagnetic Wavelengths do in fact seem to have the same Redness. It's not about the Electromagnetics its about How do we See that Redness that the Brain/Mind creates for us?
'same redness' according to whom? A trichromat, tetrachromat or a pentachromat?

They most certainly disagree on the width of the band which you seem to call 'red'.

Which is as decisive evidence as you are going to get that your 'redness' is not the same as my 'redness'.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:43 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:40 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:04 pm
By No Thing I assume you mean Consciousness is not a Physical Thing in the Physical World of Things. Consciousness is Not Matter, and Not Energy, and Not Space. I think that Consciousness might very well be a No Thing but I don't know if it is the only No Thing.
Of course it's the only No Thing.

What other No thing is known?


Where does my consciousness end and yours begin? ..you exist only because I exist, I exist only because you exist. You are my mirror and I am your mirror. Consciousness is a two way mirror reflecting the unknown no thing into a thing known.


“I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am.”
We don't know enough about the Universe yet to be able to confidently say there are no other Not Things.
We don’t know anything about the “we” that claims to be the knower, there is only knowledge aka conceptual things known by the unknown knower.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:13 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:43 pm
A Band of Electromagnetic Wavelengths do in fact seem to have the same Redness. It's not about the Electromagnetics its about How do we See that Redness that the Brain/Mind creates for us?
'same redness' according to whom? A trichromat, tetrachromat or a pentachromat?

They most certainly disagree on the width of the band which you seem to call 'red'.

Which is as decisive evidence as you are going to get that your 'redness' is not the same as my 'redness'.
So what if our Rednesses are different. The question is: How do you See your Redness and How do I See my Redness? I Have My Light and You Have Your Light. The question is: How do we have any Conscious Experience of anything? How does the Brain/Mind do that for us?

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:43 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:40 pm


Of course it's the only No Thing.

What other No thing is known?


Where does my consciousness end and yours begin? ..you exist only because I exist, I exist only because you exist. You are my mirror and I am your mirror. Consciousness is a two way mirror reflecting the unknown no thing into a thing known.


“I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am.”
We don't know enough about the Universe yet to be able to confidently say there are no other Not Things.
We don’t know anything about the “we” that claims to be the knower, there is only knowledge aka conceptual things known by the unknown knower.

.
By We I meant Science. And correct, Science does not know what We are. But that's what I am trying to figure out through my study of Conscious Experience.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:17 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:13 pm
How do you See your Redness and How do I See my Redness?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:13 pm
The question is: How do we have any Conscious Experience of anything?
Those are different questions, and I don't think there is any answer that would satisfy you.

This much we know about ALL 'explanations': they only work in some framework in which you have already allowed and accepted some other premises to be true.

It's simply not possible for anybody or anything to explain 'redness' in terms of anything else you are more familiar with.
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:20 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:17 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:13 pm
How do you See your Redness and How do I See my Redness?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:13 pm
The question is: How do we have any Conscious Experience of anything?
Those are different questions, and I don't think there is any answer that would satisfy you.

This much we know about ALL 'explanations': they only work in some framework in which you allow and accept something else to be true.
I meant them to be different ways of asking the same question.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:21 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:20 pm
I meant them to be different ways of asking the same question.
Either way.

It's simply not possible for anybody or anything to explain 'redness' or 'consciousness' in terms of anything else you are more familiar with.

Because to explain 'consciousness' in terms of X, you first need to be familiar with and understand X.

What is X?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:30 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:17 pm

Those are different questions, and I don't think there is any answer that would satisfy you.

This much we know about ALL 'explanations': they only work in some framework in which you have already allowed and accepted some other premises to be true.

It's simply not possible for anybody or anything to explain 'redness' in terms of anything else you are more familiar with.
A good answer would satisfy me as long as it is in some sensible Framework. I fully expect that the eventual understanding of Redness will involve some new ways of thinking about things. And this is because Redness is in a whole new Category of Phenomena (Conscious Phenomena) that are not part of any Scientific Category of Phenomena that is known today.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:33 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:21 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:20 pm
I meant them to be different ways of asking the same question.
Either way.

It's simply not possible for anybody or anything to explain 'redness' or 'consciousness' in terms of anything else you are more familiar with.

Because to explain 'consciousness' in terms of X, you first need to be familiar with and understand X.

What is X?
Don't need Redness to be Explained in terms of anything known by Science today. I don't think there are any known Scientific Principles that would apply. We need new Scientific Principles. That is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:30 pm
A good answer would satisfy me as long as it is in some sensible Framework. I fully expect that the eventual understanding of Redness will involve some new ways of thinking about things. And this is because Redness is in a whole new Category of Phenomena (Conscious Phenomena) that are not part of any Scientific Category of Phenomena that is known today.
Before science explains 'redness' to you, I imagine it will first have to explain the conscious phenomenon of 'expectation'?

Since that's how prediction works...

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