Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:07 pm

Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing.

Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience. It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:07 pm
Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing.
I agree with what you've said here Steve. Read my post to you carefully and see if there is anything useful in what I am saying that you can relate to in your own quest to crack the hard problem of consciousness...thanks.

We cannot know we are experiencing any sensation or perception or thought without conscious awareness present. It's just that we cannot see this immediate perception seeing this conscious experience....and that is why it cannot be found.

On reflection there is an awareness of sensory conscious perception seeing...but then notice on reflection what we are looking for can only be found in a recorded representation ..via a photographic image seen on an MRI scan.. we can never see conscious sensory experience directly head-on face to face...because reality is going live in every moment, it's always a presentation..we cannot see consciousness or even a conscious experience in the same sense we cannot see the wind or gravity, or the air we breathe, or the space between two objects, we also cannot see pain, or pleasure, or emotion, or fear, or smell, or touch, we cannot even see love. Also we never really see an object, because an object is just a ''thought'' which again cannot be seen. So no thing can be seen..they can only be known conceptually, as a 'thought' ...and for a 'thought' to be known, there needs to be an awareness present. Again here, no awareness can be seen. There is without doubt or error SEEING/KNOWING...but, the seeing/knowing cannot see and know the seer / knower ..why? ..because IT IS IT. ...it's all ONE in the instant.
...Even when consciousness is looking at a recording of it's own neural activity on a machine that is still a sensory conscious experience looking at itself in a recording and not the actual real-time immediate conscious experience here now..what if the reason we can't find the conscious experience is because we already are what we are looking for? and that we can only ever see ourself in a memory? what's already been recorded...but gives continuity to the present so that it seems like conscious experience is actually happening to a something? ..when in reality that something is not conscious anymore because it's just a recorded image?

In the immediate moment of the present there is no thing experiencing a conscious experience,just as there is no person there in deep dreamless sleep.So where does an assumed 'person' come from upon waking from nightly sleep when the eyes open and the external world is seen?

The person idea comes from the external world ...an object is seen triggering a 'thought' ( I am seeing an object)
That 'thought' being perceived is the conscious experience...apparently turning the seer into an object aka the object of seeing in the same instant forming an identification where seeing becomes the knower of itself as and through the object known...however, it can never be the object known...in the same sense you cannot be a tree, but you can be aware of a tree as a concept known. In reality, no tree has ever been seen, it's only a known concept aka a ''thought'' known in awareness, the tree is a conscious experience - the tree is only real in the sense the awareness aware of the ''tree'' is real...because 'thought' is inseparable from awareness...and while an object is seen/known...the object itself doesn't have an awareness of it's own, so the object is not really out-there, it's a projected image of imageless conscious awareness which is everyhwere and nowhere all at once like EMPTY SPACE..appearing full...in that there is no space without an object, and no object without space.....but in reality there is no divide between the two....where does one thing start and end...there's no divide because the divider is also a ''thought'' in that which is indivisable aka invisible awareness ....also notice these are all just descriptive WORDS being used to describe the unseen....they too are all just empty concepts KNOWN by awareness that cannot be seen... in other words ''things'' are ''thoughts'' they are the invisible visible....therefore all reality is actually made up of emptiness appearing to be full.

And while the known observed can be described, the observer can never be seen or described because it can only know itself as a conceptual object an idea within awareness itself...an object has no awareness, the object is always being awared as a known concept in awareness only..... awareness knows a concept but it cannot be that concept...because concepts are not aware...only awareness is aware.

Awareness doesn't have an image of itself either, and it doesn't need to have one...but if it want's to experience itself it will take on the image of it's own knowing, aka it's own mirror image so to speak in the form of an object aka a ''thought''

And out of that one unitary action a whole dream world appears..appearing real...very very real.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:22 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am
what if the reason we can't find the conscious experience is because we already are what we are looking for?
Hello. Thank You for the usual enigmatic reply. Sorry to reduce your post to this one sentence, but I think there is great value in this thought. I think we may have talked about this before but I too have reached the conclusion that we are the Redness of the Red that I talk about. We are all the Colors that we Experience. We are the Light. Now having said that I still think there is a great mystery to solve namely what are we? How is it that I am the Light?

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RCSaunders
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am
... we cannot see consciousness or even a conscious experience in the same sense we cannot see the wind or gravity, or the air we breathe, or the space between two objects, we also cannot see pain, or pleasure, or emotion, or fear, or smell, or touch, we cannot even see love. Also we never really see an object, ...
You were doing pretty well until you got to, "we never really see an object."

Conscious is not a physical attribute. We can be directly conscious, that is, consciously perceive, physical attributes, but cannot perceive consciousness itself. We know we are conscious because we are just as we know we can see, not by seeing our seeing, but because we do see.

We do see not some physical things because they have not perceivable attributes, like color, which is why we cannot see the wind or air, but we can perceive them by feeling them. We cannot "see" gravity, but we can certainly, "feel," weight and see things fall, and we do see the space between objects by their relationship in our field of vision. Did you forget that perception is not only seeing, but feeling which is how we consciously perceive pain and emotion, and touch is one of the direct conscious perceptions and it is actual physical things we feel by touch.

Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Impenitent » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:20 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am

...

Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?
Descartes' evil demon?

Brains in vats?

-Imp

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:41 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am

Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?
The original seer aka awareness has no instrument in the form eyes to see itself inwardly directly...but uses mechanical eyes, the only instrument avaiable in order to peer through...the eyeball is not the seer, it's the instrument of seeing....Seeing awareness is one way street...and also a two way street, which is the same one way street, simply because only in looking back - can the looking be known to be looking forward....and vice versa.

In looking within and back there is nothing to see/know in relation to looking forward to what can be seen/known..

In looking behind the eyeball, nothing can be seen or known.. only what's in front can be seen and known...and the fact that every walking body on the planet knows not to bump into another body is because every body is being looked through by the same one awareness knowing itself.


Ultimately, Awareness cannot see behind itself, or inside itself to see who is looking....as the assumption there is a conscious entity inside this body implies...aka an after ''thought'' already known to Awareness ....Awareness is one seamless seeing, one directional / one dimensional...No 3D object aka an ''object of seeing'' has ever been seen - a 3D object is a Known 2 dimensional holographic image within 1 dimensional eyeless seeing awareness. An object is an image of the imageless, the only seeing and knowing there is as and through the only instrument available aka the mechanism of seeing, aka the eyeball... the mechanism itself doesn't see or know anything, the mechanism is already known and couched within seeing knowing awareness the only knowing seeing there is.

What you think of as reality is actually made of empty conceptual knowledge..aka concepts as imaged, just like pictures on a movie screen or on a photograph, they are conceptual known characters aka representations of Awareness currently presenting itself all at once, one without a second. That's all that's going on here. No character has consciousness, characters are known by consciousness that cannot be seen and known because Consciousness is the only seeing and knowing there IS

There is no one to know why, or how, or where, or what, or who Awareness is ..just that AWARENESS IS (unidentifable)...however, the mind body brain aka the mechanism for ''thought processing'' is recognising, remembering and knowning each ''thought'' as and when it arises... it is constantly filling in the empty gaps of it's existence with it's own mentally constructed thoughts and concepts of what it believes itself to be, because that's all thought can know, thought can only know itself as a thought...it cannot know the thinker of the thought because, it's only experience is the thought...while the thinker is not a thought, nor can the thinker be an experience....the thinker is totally thoughtless empty of thought ..yet knows every thought as when that thoughts arise in it...And that is why the world of ''things'' aka objects are seen to be nothing more than just pure thought up dreamscape dreamt by no one appearing in empty awareness...

An object aka a concept within you another name for awareness is known only to you as an idea...no actual concept has ever been seen..concepts give you another name for Awareness the impression of being conscious. In reality Awareness is neither conscious nor unconscious, neither is it dead or alive...these are all just concepts known by no one...there is no ''someone'' being conscious because a 'someone' is a concept, it's an object of knowing awareness inseparable from the awareness ...an object is not aware of itself...it's being awared...the object is always the looked upon by the only looker there is...here/there are not two lookers, not two awarenesses. Here/there are many objects, concepts known, but no object has ever been seen, they are known to the knower/seeing awareness that cannot be known or seen twice.

Awareness cannot be known by another awareness because like space, there is only one space and the contents of that one space are inseparable from that space. In space there is no third dimension ..3D is just a known illusion hidden within 1 imageless dimensional screen on which it projects 2D images.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:09 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am
... we cannot see consciousness or even a conscious experience in the same sense we cannot see the wind or gravity, or the air we breathe, or the space between two objects, we also cannot see pain, or pleasure, or emotion, or fear, or smell, or touch, we cannot even see love. Also we never really see an object, ...
You were doing pretty well until you got to, "we never really see an object."

Conscious is not a physical attribute. We can be directly conscious, that is, consciously perceive, physical attributes, but cannot perceive consciousness itself. We know we are conscious because we are just as we know we can see, not by seeing our seeing, but because we do see.

We do see not some physical things because they have not perceivable attributes, like color, which is why we cannot see the wind or air, but we can perceive them by feeling them. We cannot "see" gravity, but we can certainly, "feel," weight and see things fall, and we do see the space between objects by their relationship in our field of vision. Did you forget that perception is not only seeing, but feeling which is how we consciously perceive pain and emotion, and touch is one of the direct conscious perceptions and it is actual physical things we feel by touch.
I agree with all this knowledge, but did you not remember that this knowledge is all known only within the dream of separation for no one.
RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am
Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?
Now here is the rub..No one is conscious of their existence, no one has ever seen an actual 3D object ..All objects are KNOWN as 2D projected images UPON the screen of ONE knowing and seeing Awareness...aka this not-knowning un-seen empty of image Awareness.

Reality is KNOWN / FELT...the knower and feeler has never been SEEN...because it's all alone, one with itself only.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am
... we cannot see consciousness or even a conscious experience in the same sense we cannot see the wind or gravity, or the air we breathe, or the space between two objects, we also cannot see pain, or pleasure, or emotion, or fear, or smell, or touch, we cannot even see love. Also we never really see an object, ...
You were doing pretty well until you got to, "we never really see an object."

Conscious is not a physical attribute. We can be directly conscious, that is, consciously perceive, physical attributes, but cannot perceive consciousness itself. We know we are conscious because we are just as we know we can see, not by seeing our seeing, but because we do see.

We do see not some physical things because they have not perceivable attributes, like color, which is why we cannot see the wind or air, but we can perceive them by feeling them. We cannot "see" gravity, but we can certainly, "feel," weight and see things fall, and we do see the space between objects by their relationship in our field of vision. Did you forget that perception is not only seeing, but feeling which is how we consciously perceive pain and emotion, and touch is one of the direct conscious perceptions and it is actual physical things we feel by touch.

Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?
We actually don't See Objects directly. Instead we See a Surrogate for the Object. That Surrogate is created by the Brain/Mind. The Red, for example, that you think you See does not Exist in the Physical World. The Redness of the Red is a Conscious Phenomenon as opposed to a Physical Phenomenon. The Redness exists only in your Mind. This is true for all the Colors and therefore for Light in general. We have never Seen the Physical Light that is out there in the Physical World. We have only ever Seen the Surrogate for Light that is in our Conscious Minds. It is the Light Qualia or Conscious Light as I prefer to call it. Since the Conscious Light Surrogate is generated within our Brain/Mind it is part of what we are. We are the Conscious Light that we have always Seen.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am
... we cannot see consciousness or even a conscious experience in the same sense we cannot see the wind or gravity, or the air we breathe, or the space between two objects, we also cannot see pain, or pleasure, or emotion, or fear, or smell, or touch, we cannot even see love. Also we never really see an object, ...
You were doing pretty well until you got to, "we never really see an object."

Conscious is not a physical attribute. We can be directly conscious, that is, consciously perceive, physical attributes, but cannot perceive consciousness itself. We know we are conscious because we are just as we know we can see, not by seeing our seeing, but because we do see.

We do see not some physical things because they have not perceivable attributes, like color, which is why we cannot see the wind or air, but we can perceive them by feeling them. We cannot "see" gravity, but we can certainly, "feel," weight and see things fall, and we do see the space between objects by their relationship in our field of vision. Did you forget that perception is not only seeing, but feeling which is how we consciously perceive pain and emotion, and touch is one of the direct conscious perceptions and it is actual physical things we feel by touch.

Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?
We actually don't See Objects directly. Instead we See a Surrogate for the Object. That Surrogate is created by the Brain/Mind.
If one is going to assert that there is some kind of process that produces some specific result, what that process is and how it produces the result must be described, else it is just a fancy way of saying, "it happens somehow." In other words, it's just made up.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
The Red, for example, that you think you See does not Exist in the Physical World. The Redness of the Red is a Conscious Phenomenon as opposed to a Physical Phenomenon. The Redness exists only in your Mind.
This an old and very bad mistake in philosophy, even Locke was deceived by it.

If red is not an attribute (quality) of physical things, why would the brain make it up. What possible use could consciousness make of something that does not exist in the physical world? But color is not invented in the brain or anywhere else, it is a real attribute of the physical phenomena that is seen.

The color of an entity is determined by it's nature, just as it's shape is, or it's weight is. An entity's color is determined by those characteristics that determine the wave-lengths of the light it will reflect, transmit, or emit, all measurable characteristics, by the way.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
We have never Seen the Physical Light that is out there in the Physical World.
Who is "we?" Speak for yourself. I've seen light since the day I first opened my eyes.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
We have
... We are the Conscious Light that we have always Seen.
It is not true, but if it were, you would be able to explain how you know this. Why do you believe this?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:45 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
If one is going to assert that there is some kind of process that produces some specific result, what that process is and how it produces the result must be described, else it is just a fancy way of saying, "it happens somehow." In other words, it's just made up.
That's not how physicists think about it.

Gravity happens somehow. Gravity is not made up.

There is a conceptual distinction to be made between "it happens somehow" and "it's made up". This is what the concept of the black box is for!

A black box can still make predictions. And if those predictions agree with experiment, then it doesn't matter whether you can describe how the black box works. There is sufficient evidence to say that it does. If you don't agree with this premise, then you ought to reject Newton's law of Universal Gravitation and Einstein's General Relativity.

Daniel Dennet has made this exact argument about "causality" : http://cogprints.org/247/
Most people struggle to accept that as a fact of the scientific epistemology.

The inside/outside perspective of some process is just another aspect of the dualism humans face.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:02 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
color is not invented in the brain or anywhere else, it is a real attribute of the physical phenomena that is seen.
'Color' happens in the brain. Science has already settled this. Trichromats, Tetrachromats and Pentachromats experience it differently.

This ties in directly with the thought-experiment I asked you to perform C = С.

Two light sources were shown to Tricorhmats and Tetrachromats and they were asked if the two lights are "the same". Tetrachromats can tell a difference. Tricorhmats can't.
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:08 am

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:45 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
If one is going to assert that there is some kind of process that produces some specific result, what that process is and how it produces the result must be described, else it is just a fancy way of saying, "it happens somehow." In other words, it's just made up.
That's not how science thinks about it.

Gravity happens somehow. Gravity is not made up.

There is a conceptual distinction to be made between "it happens somehow" and "it's made up". This is what the concept of the black box is for!

A black box can still make predictions. And if those predictions agree with experiment, then it doesn't matter whether you can describe how the black box works. There is sufficient evidence to say that it does.
A prediction is a fictional knowledge, a prediction is already known prior to actual knowing. Actual immediate knowing is unknown by man, because man is already a concept known...there is no knowledge present HERENOW NOWHERE thIS immediate present...all KNOWN knowledge can only have it's original source in what's already past, rending all knowledge a dead fiction...aka memory...a prediction is only possible when a demand for knowledge is activated via the mind...a knowledge that already existed prior to it being known else no knowledge could not have been known or predicted at ALL.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:14 am

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:02 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
color is not invented in the brain or anywhere else, it is a real attribute of the physical phenomena that is seen.
'Color' happens in the brain.
No thing (concept)happens in the brain...the brain is not inside or outside of reality. There is no inside or outside of reality except in this fictional conception...aka (mentation)

The belief aka (mentation) that reality is happening inside a brain is the same belief reality is happening everywhere inside and outside all at once simultaneously. For where is inside that is not also outside of itself in the same instant..?

No thing knows it's matter, and yet all matter is known by no thing.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:16 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:14 am
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:02 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
color is not invented in the brain or anywhere else, it is a real attribute of the physical phenomena that is seen.
'Color' happens in the brain.
No thing (concept)happens in the brain...the brain is not inside or outside of reality. There is no inside or outside of reality except in this fictional conception...aka (mentation)

The belief aka (mentation) that reality is happening inside a brain is the same belief reality is happening everyhwere inside and outside all at once simultaneously. For where is inside that is not also outside of itself in the same instant..?

No thing knows it's matter, and yet all matter is known by no thing.
It must suck being trapped in your head. Pretending human existence is non-dualistic.

Non-dualism is an ideal. Dualism is fact.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:35 am

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:16 am
It must suck being trapped in your head. Pretending human existence is non-dualistic.

Non-dualism is an ideal. Dualism is fact.
Yes, dualism is a fact. Reality is nought but one idea appearing as mulitple ideas...including the concept (dualism)

Where on earth do you think ideas come from at all? ...

You have no knowledge of any fact or of yourself or what you are or what you look like without using a mirror to reflect it back to you.

What is being reflected back to you is a mirror image of your imageless self..relfected as image known (conception of you) ...and what you forget is that what is known cannot know anything. Why, because it's a fictional image of the imageless unborn mind.

There is no thing trapped here, reality is totally free of any image, and the fact that it doesn't have an image of itself, it will demand one, and is why it can reflect one out of itself using the mirror trick..it then takes on that image it reflects and forgets it's just a reflection, not the actual seer of the reflection. The seer / knower cannot see or know itself without a mirror to inform itself of itself.

There is no such thing as non-duality because non-duality is not a thing. Non-duality is duality...the mirror image of itself.

It must suck not knowing your metaphysics...but then you don't know it anyway, it knows you, it does you, you are being done, you are being fucked over right now as we speak..trapped in the head of your own making... aka The image you have artificially created out of your nothingness.

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