Do humans have a soul?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:41 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:07 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:33 pm
-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:25 pm
If the world became less than good enough, as you say, then it was not good enough in the first place,...
But you still haven't said good enough for what.

A raincoat is good enough for rain, but not for heavy snow. And it's not because the raincoat is a bad raincoat: it's good for its role. A rubber raft is good enough for the swimming pool, but not for the ocean. Again, it's good in its place. Things are "good enough" for purposes.

For what purpose would you suggest the world was "not good enough"?
I haven't said "good enough for what" because God did not say what it was good for.
Well, if you don't know, then you're in no position to say "It's not good enough." You'd have no metric by which to assess such a thing.

But I think you must have meant something real and purposeful when you said it: do you know what you meant? Why not be forthcoming, then? But if you didn't know what you meant, why do you think you felt compelled to say it?

I'm not criticizing you...I'm trying to find out if you have a point. It might be important.
the same question is also impossible to answer by the other party.
Oh, I don't think it is. I think Torah actually answers it. In fact, I know it does. But Torah cannot tell me what you meant. Only you can tell me that.

haShem says, "It is good." -1- says, "No, it isn't good enough." I just want to know what perspective provides you with that "enough" word.
It had necessitated change, and something that is good enough does not need changing.
Not so. A good child may change and grow, without us expecting an eight year old to act like a twelve year old. A good enough 8 year old is good enough for being 8. But he will change.

The sun rises and sets. The day changes. It does not make the day evil or defective, does it? Flowers arise, bloom, go to seed and produce more flowers...where's the failure in that? So change is not always an indicator of failure. Sometimes it may be, and sometimes not.
...you find yourself triumphant.
Not at all. You've got me wrong. I think that trying to "win" discussions is utterly futile. What one wants to do, instead, is engage and push forward with ideas until both parties arrive somewhere better than where they began.

I really don't think any other kind of conversation is worth having.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:47 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:15 am
...that it was a mistake to create a good enough world and then destroy it by creating a creature in it that will randomly -- absolutely randomly -- destroy it. Call it free will, or anything else that is the motivating force of destruction...
See, this is what I was trying to get to.

You do have a point. You have a metric for "enough." The thing that's on your mind, it would seem, is that the world is experiencing destruction, and this destruction is precipitated, at least in half measure, by human free will. Your conclusion, then, is that God made a mistake in allowing freedom -- or else, the destruction is evidence He doesn't exist at all.

Have I got that right?
...you bring in a sentimental card and play it, and that is precisely what the ad hominem characteristic is in your argument...
No, ad hominem is more specific than that. It's to insult (or believe) the speaker, instead of to weigh what he actually says. This is not that, and I'm not seeking to evoke sentiment.

Instead, what I'm asking is what the logical corollaries of the concept "free will" would be. I'm asking, "Is free will a better thing than determinism?" That's a conceptual question, asking for your value judgment. It's not an insult against you, nor asking you to believe me simply because I'm me.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:55 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:41 pm
Freedom. Which is NOT free will.
You're going to have to help me see how free will can be had without freedom. The first entails the second, does it not? How could somebody have free will but no options about anything -- even attitude?
Maybe people hate their free will when they choose a bad alternative among many a good alternatives.
I don't think so. They like, and are exercising their free will -- if they didn't, they wouldn't "choose" (as you say) anything at all -- they just perhaps don't always like what they get when they do.

I may wish I married Barbie instead of Stacy. That doesn't mean I hate my free will. In fact, maybe I want to have it again, so I can choose Stacy this time. But maybe Stacy's also a harridan, and I just don't know it. Maybe that choice too, will make me miserable. But I still want the choice. And if that one fails, I want another one, so I can marry Carrie...and so on. I will keep believing in the value of my free will...even if I hate some of the outcomes.
People like their freedom, but they hate, absolutely hate, the effect of their free will.
Yes, see...there's a difference between saying, "I hate my ability to choose (free will)," and saying, "I hate what I got when I used my free will" (outcome).

I think people say the latter, but I think, not the former.

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henry quirk
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-1-

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:40 pm

"Free Will is a religious doctrine about how human beings, apart from all the rest of creation, are not bound by necessity."

Ain't nuthin' religious about libertarian agent causation (the only free will worth having), so: you're wrong.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: -1-

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:05 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:08 pm
Henry, Free Will is a religious doctrine
No, Belinda, it's not. You may have encountered it first that way, but it's not.

It has religious implications, but it's merely a philosophical position. There's a well-developed philosophical literature on issues like "voluntarism" and "libertarianism," none of which has necessarily to do with religion. Free will has to do with human volition: it wonders, does it have any initial causative power, or it itself only the latest in a chain of merely ostensible cause that trace from the ancient past?

Determinism is the same: it has a theological variation known as "UltraCalvinism." But Causal Materialism is equally a form of strict Determinism, and it has no theological suppositions at all...in fact, its suppositions are stridently anti-religious.

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Re: -1-

Post by Belinda » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:05 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:08 pm
Henry, Free Will is a religious doctrine
No, Belinda, it's not. You may have encountered it first that way, but it's not.

It has religious implications, but it's merely a philosophical position. There's a well-developed philosophical literature on issues like "voluntarism" and "libertarianism," none of which has necessarily to do with religion. Free will has to do with human volition: it wonders, does it have any initial causative power, or it itself only the latest in a chain of merely ostensible cause that trace from the ancient past?

Determinism is the same: it has a theological variation known as "UltraCalvinism." But Causal Materialism is equally a form of strict Determinism, and it has no theological suppositions at all...in fact, its suppositions are stridently anti-religious.
Only religion could have the power to promote Free Will as a supernatural add- on to the natural biological man

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Immanuel Can
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Re: -1-

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:40 pm
Only religion could have the power to promote Free Will as a supernatural add- on to the natural biological man
This isn't true, actually. As I say, there's a well-developed secular literature on the subject, involving many of the major philosophers.

Let me suggest you start with something like Schneewind's The Invention of Autonomy, or Brender et al. New Essays on the History of Autonomy.

You'll see.

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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by -1- » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:41 pm
Oh, I don't think it is. I think Torah actually answers it. In fact, I know it does. But Torah cannot tell me what you meant. Only you can tell me that.
I meant precisely the same as the Torah.

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-1-
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by -1- » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:55 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:41 pm
Freedom. Which is NOT free will.
You're going to have to help me see how free will can be had without freedom. Free will can be had only with freedom per se, but it can be also held without many other forms of freedom.
Maybe people hate their free will when they choose a bad alternative among many a good alternatives.
I don't think so. I may wish I married Barbie instead of Stacy. That doesn't mean I hate my free will. In fact, maybe I want to have it again, so I can choose Stacy this time. But maybe Stacy's also a harridan, and I just don't know it. Maybe that choice too, will make me miserable. But I still want the choice. And if that one fails, I want another one, so I can marry Carrie...and so on. I will keep believing in the value of my free will...even if I hate some of the outcomes. As you like, Immanuel. It's a personal choice, and you can't generalize from it... much like I can't generalize from my experience. Let's keep making bad, bad choices, and revel in the joy of choosing horrible choices with our free will. Your all for it, so why not.
People like their freedom, but they hate, absolutely hate, the effect of their free will.
Yes, see...there's a difference between saying, "I hate my ability to choose (free will)," and saying, "I hate what I got when I used my free will" (outcome).

I think people say the latter, but I think, not the former.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:32 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:55 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:41 pm
Freedom. Which is NOT free will.
Free will can be had only with freedom per se, but it can be also held without many other forms of freedom.
Well, then, you were surely splitting hairs. If freedom is a sine qua non of free will, then the distinction is surely trivial.
Maybe people hate their free will when they choose a bad alternative among many a good alternatives.
I don't think so. I may wish I married Barbie instead of Stacy. That doesn't mean I hate my free will. In fact, maybe I want to have it again, so I can choose Stacy this time. But maybe Stacy's also a harridan, and I just don't know it. Maybe that choice too, will make me miserable. But I still want the choice. And if that one fails, I want another one, so I can marry Carrie...and so on. I will keep believing in the value of my free will...even if I hate some of the outcomes.
As you like, Immanuel.
Well, I know of many people who regret their choices; I have never met one that regrets his/her faculty of choosing. They always want more choices than they've got, in fact.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:35 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:02 pm
I meant precisely the same as the Torah.
So you now say that the world was created "good," (as Torah says) but that, as Torah also says, it only became "not good enough" as a result of man's sin? Because that's "precisely the same as the Torah."

But if that's what you meant, why did you say the world was created "not good enough"?

Belinda
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Re: -1-

Post by Belinda » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:15 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:40 pm
Only religion could have the power to promote Free Will as a supernatural add- on to the natural biological man
This isn't true, actually. As I say, there's a well-developed secular literature on the subject, involving many of the major philosophers.

Let me suggest you start with something like Schneewind's The Invention of Autonomy, or Brender et al. New Essays on the History of Autonomy.

You'll see.
Autonomy is man's because he has power to exert autonomy. So called Free Will is an ontic category unlike power which is a relative attribute.

Definition of ontic - relating to entities and the facts about them; relating to real as opposed to phenomenal existence.
Oxford Dictionaries online)

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Immanuel Can
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Re: -1-

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:25 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:15 am
Autonomy is man's because he has power to exert autonomy. So called Free Will is an ontic category unlike power which is a relative attribute.
Definition of ontic - relating to entities and the facts about them; relating to real as opposed to phenomenal existence.
Oxford Dictionaries online)
That seems unresponsive to the point, but okay.

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bahman
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by bahman » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:57 am

philosophic nature wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:30 am
Dear members,

sometimes humans talk about, that they would have NO soul.
Thats not understandable for me, because i think everybody must have a soul!
So i cant explain, why we should have no souls.

Soul is the aura, thé comprehensive part of our body.
The body of us is underlined with body, mind and soul.
To integrate those three parts is very interesting for me in my life.
So my aim is, to focus to bring those three parts in one way together to be lucky.

So the mind is not the soul, and the sojul is not the mind. The mind is under our soul.

What do you think bout those thinkings?

Best greetings
Dominik
Each individual is a collection of minds, mind being essence of an agent with ability to experience, decide and cause. The rest is just illusion.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Do humans have a soul?

Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:39 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:57 am
The rest is just illusion.
What, exactly, is suffering that illusion?

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