Just another belief system.

[Sculptor]

It does not matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still wrong.

That's just a silly truism! I am wrong, you are wrong, Dontaskme is wrong, we are all wrong!

It's a principle of science that "All models are wrong, some are useful".

But as Asimov argues, wrongness is relative.

True, and he is absolutely wrong, specifically wrong and particularly wrong.
If you had even bothered to read the thread you might even agree.

[Sculptor]

It does not matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still wrong.

To know truth is to lie, and that is the truth.

Confusion says; " You are most lonely in a room full of people". " You are most replete when you are staving to death; most hungry when you are full to the brim with food".
"The Sky is most illuminated in the middle of the night; darkest when the sun shines at noon."
As for you; you are wrongest when you think you are right, and the most stupid when you think you are being clever.
This is why I suggested you get a life!
DO you think you might be spending to much time online?

[surreptitious57]

Reality does not know of its existence but the mind that is part of this not knowing places upon itself an interpretation
of what it thinks it is as believed to be real as in what seems real to the mind

I agree that reality does not know of its existence and I think minds take it to be real just because it appears to be
Whether it is actually real or not is academic because they do not know anything else as this is all they have known

My own mind would not let me accept reality as anything other than real which is not a problem for me
It thinks my death is real too but by then it will no longer be a mind and I will no longer exist as I do now

[Sculptor]

It always amuses me when someone whose exasperation reaches such a level because their pet "truth" has been once against condemned as "Just a belief system", that they immediately shoot themselves in the foot by insisting that the reasonable argument against it is also "just a belief system".
I've never seen this before with Dualism; most often it is a Theist that tries to ridicule "atheism" as "just a belief system", when it is nothing of the sort.
Dualism is indeed JUST a belief system.

It's like a Flat Earther saying that people who know the earth is a round is just a belief system.
The earth being round is empirical
Atheism is a denial of a stupid set of ideas and a default position about a case not proved.
"Nondualism" is not even a thing.
Atheism was a term invented by theists to persecute people who did not agree with them. I think that is what we are seeing here.

[Dontaskme]

Reality does not know of its existence but the mind that is part of this not knowing places upon itself an interpretation
of what it thinks it is as believed to be real as in what seems real to the mind

I agree that reality does not know of its existence and I think minds take it to be real just because it appears to be
Whether it is actually real or not is academic because they do not know anything else as this is all they have known

My own mind would not let me accept reality as anything other than real which is not a problem for me
It thinks my death is real too but by then it will no longer be a mind and I will no longer exist as I do now

Yes I agree with what you are saying.
But for me, the I that will no longer exist is just a thought, and that thought will no longer be available to be known or recognised...so for me it’s not the I that no longer exists, because the I is birthless and deathless...only the belief in birth and death is born and can die, that which is born dies and that which dies is born...this is thought, the mind of knowledge the realm of duality, the dream of separation..But that which knows all thought aka awareness I is who you are, not the thought.

.

[Dontaskme]

DO you think you might be spending to much time online?

What I am doing on this online forum is telling as many lies as I possibly can in order to reveal the truth behind them.
It’s what I do for a hobby.
I am the creator of this thread so I am responsible for the guiding of the context in which this thread topic is directed.

I spend my time as I wish and quite frankly it is no ones business but my own how I spend my time. Like I’ve said to you before, smell your own shit, if the smell here is not yours.

.

[surreptitious57]

Nonduality is also a belief system but one which wipes itself and the believer away

Minds need models of reality or else they cannot function because accepting that nothing is all that exists is virtually impossible
It is incredibly counter intuitive to deny ones own existence and a mind that was actually capable of that might as well be dead
However it is possible to be detached just not absolutely so for the nature of mind is to make sense of the reality it experiences

[surreptitious57]

But for me the I that will no longer exist is just a thought and that thought will no longer be available to be known or recognised
.. so for me its not the I that no longer exists because the I is birthless and deathless .. only the belief in birth and death is born
and can die that which is born dies and that which dies is born

I cannot accept the concepts of birthless and deathless as being real but even if I did it would make zero difference to my existence
That is because my mind would still have to experience this reality as it always has since the day I was born since that is all it can do

But this reality I experience is from my perspective very limited as I am only aware of it while I am alive
There was an infinity of existence before I was born and there will be an infinity of existence after I die

[Dontaskme]

Minds need models of reality or else they cannot function because accepting that nothing is all that exists is virtually impossible

The minds model of reality is never what reality actually is. But obviously a model has to be formed for the human mind in order to make sense of it's mental contructions, and be sane in the world of it's own creation.

It is incredibly counter intuitive to deny ones own existence and a mind that was actually capable of that might as well be dead

One cannot experience ones own presence or absence. ONE simply IS ..prior to any notion of is or isn't put there by the mind.

However it is possible to be detached just not absolutely so for the nature of mind is to make sense of the reality it experiences

I agree.

[Dontaskme]

But for me the I that will no longer exist is just a thought and that thought will no longer be available to be known or recognised
.. so for me its not the I that no longer exists because the I is birthless and deathless .. only the belief in birth and death is born
and can die that which is born dies and that which dies is born

I cannot accept the concepts of birthless and deathless as being real but even if I did it would make zero difference to my existence
That is because my mind would still have to experience this reality as it always has since the day I was born since that is all it can do

In the dream of separation yes, the action figure character named surreptitious57 can be born and can die and have a multitude of thrills, adventures and experiences..this i is the observed object. But the real nature of you is the unborn undying observer of yourself within the dream...YOUR REAL i is the Pure Awareness in which the dream of you arises within itself.

.

[Dontaskme]

But this reality I experience is from my perspective very limited as I am only aware of it while I am alive
There was an infinity of existence before I was born and there will be an infinity of existence after I die

There is an imperishable I in which the 'thought of I' appears and disappears..and knows the temporal 'thought of I' as the dream character within the dreamer...by association, as it's only identity.

It's all YOU...and this YOU is infinite. . . IN FINITE.

Infinity is just another word for NOW

And now is just another word for the time-less unborn undying eternal.

Time is within the dream of separation...aka duality.

.

[surreptitious57]

the real nature of you is the unborn undying observer of yourself within the dream
YOUR REAL i is the Pure Awareness in which the dream of you within itself arises

That dream is only something I can be aware of while I am within this mind and body
Because when my body dies and my mind stops functioning then I will not be able to experience any dream through Pure Awareness
Pure Awareness may be eternal but without a mind or body it will effectively not exist for me anymore so death is therefore very real
In exactly the same way that when I die the Universe will still carry on existing even though I will not be able to experience it anymore

[Dontaskme]

people who know the earth is a round is just a belief system.

To know something, is to form a visual image or impression out from a formless mental idea and then believing the image actually exists as a separate material thing in and of itself apart from the idea, it is to have knowledge by association as and through it's construction within the believing brain or mind.

Knowledge is a conceptual mind made overlay upon the unknown presence of being. To have knowledge is a belief system.

There is no you that HAS knowledge.

YOU are knowledge. From belief to clarity.



.

[Dontaskme]

the real nature of you is the unborn undying observer of yourself within the dream
YOUR REAL i is the Pure Awareness in which the dream of you within itself arises

That dream is only something I can be aware of while I am within this mind and body

Yes.

Because when my body dies and my mind stops functioning then I will not be able to experience any dream through Pure Awareness

Yes.

Pure Awareness may be eternal but without a mind or body it will effectively not exist for me anymore so death is therefore very real

Well yes in the sense that the mind/body mechanism is the only instrument available in which Awareness expresses itself as and through that instrument.
Pure Awareness does not know it is dead or alive...and yet paradoxically, knows such ideas as and through their mentally created concepts of such...as KNOWLEDGE dictates. . via the mind/body mechanism.


As Awareness you have never known or experienced death or life, except as concepts within the realm of knowledge within the dream of separation, aka the realm of make-belief, that no one is experiencing. You is no thing dreaming you are a thing, aka a person.
If you can know or experience death or birth, then you would have had to have been there at your own birth and death. But that would require two of you, one as the witness and the other one as the witnessed. So all that is being witnessed here in this reality is the dream of you as and through this body mind character with a name attached, as conceptually known. Concepts known cannot know, they are being known by that which cannot be known, because the knowing is only and ever one with itself one with the knowing.

In exactly the same way that when I die the Universe will still carry on existing even though I will not be able to experience it anymore

You have never known death or birth, you can only know these concepts within the dream. No thing ever lived or died in a dream..as evidenced upon awakening from the dream - where the dream is no more, but you are, you are the one recalling the dream that had arisen within you...If awareness was not always present - there could be no dreams or knowledge of anything. That is why the Dreamer and dream are always one in the exact same instant happening now here, nowhere.

You are never not here, for you first have to exist before you can become aware you exist, but the you that you are aware of existing is only an idea within the dream of illusory separation already known within what you always are HERE AND NOW which is Not-Knowing Pure Awareness.

.

[surreptitious57]

You have never known death or birth you can only know these concepts within the dream . No thing ever lived or died in a dream .. as evidenced upon awakening from the dream - where the dream is no more but you are the one recalling the dream that had arisen within you .. If awareness was not always present - there could be no dreams or knowledge of anything . That is why Dreamer and dream are always one in the exact same instant happening now here nowhere

You are never not here for you first have to exist before you can become aware you exist but the you that you are aware of existing is only an
idea within the dream of illusory separation already known within what you always are HERE AND NOW which is Not Knowing Pure Awareness

The concepts within the dream are all I have ever known so even if it is not real I experience it as if it was . I cannot go outside of the dream in the same way that I cannot leave my body when I am dreaming or sleeping . I can imagine what it is like to be seeing my body from the outside but I cannot actually do it for real [ I have never had an out of body experience ] And so from my perspective of only being in the dream I have experienced birth and I will experience death as well . So then what is important here is not the objective nature of reality but the subjective nature of what my body and mind have convinced me is real . For it is real because it is all I have ever known . So when I do die it will be very real for me . I actually do not think that Pure Awareness is real because my mind refuses to accept it even though I have no problem with it as just a concept . But as I have no control over it then it makes no difference either way . Far as my mind and body are concerned when I do die that will be the end of the I that is me for the rest of etenity . Now I do not want to live for ever anyway and so am glad that death is final and absolute . For me it is the end of suffering and so is not something to be feared but accepted without prejudice