No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Ramu
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Ramu » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:46 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 am
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am
nonduality is not a belief system...its all based on direct experience of the absolute..
The absolute can't be experienced, that's just a belief system.
It's not an experience. You're IT. But one must use language to communicate despite its limitations.

Atla
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:53 am

Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:46 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 am
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am
nonduality is not a belief system...its all based on direct experience of the absolute..
The absolute can't be experienced, that's just a belief system.
It's not an experience. You're IT. But one must use language to communicate despite its limitations.
Then why do you keep agreeing with DAM (in case you aren't DAM's alt nick), who keeps talking about hallucinations, projections, dreamscape etc?

If we are IT then this is already IT, so there's no actual veil of illusion to look behind.

Ramu
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Ramu » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:35 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:53 am
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:46 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 am

The absolute can't be experienced, that's just a belief system.
It's not an experience. You're IT. But one must use language to communicate despite its limitations.
Then why do you keep agreeing with DAM (in case you aren't DAM's alt nick), who keeps talking about hallucinations, projections, dreamscape etc?

If we are IT then this is already IT, so there's no actual veil of illusion to look behind.
No I am Ramu, not DAM. We agree because we are non dualists, not physicalists. The true nature of Consciousness has been known for thousands of years. Brain does not generate consciousness. Consciousness, (Source, Being, True Self), is first order. Everything else is second order. In other words..everything is occurring within It.

Atla
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:51 pm

Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:35 pm
No I am Ramu, not DAM. We agree because we are non dualists, not physicalists. The true nature of Consciousness has been known for thousands of years. Brain does not generate consciousness. Consciousness, (Source, Being, True Self), is first order. Everything else is second order. In other words..everything is occurring within It.
Yes, but that "first order" is, in a way, just the sum of the "second order". We are that.

If there's nothing extra to be experienced about the "first order", and it doesn't do anything, and it doesn't dream up things etc., then why do you agree with DAM?

Ramu
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Ramu » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:53 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:51 pm
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:35 pm
No I am Ramu, not DAM. We agree because we are non dualists, not physicalists. The true nature of Consciousness has been known for thousands of years. Brain does not generate consciousness. Consciousness, (Source, Being, True Self), is first order. Everything else is second order. In other words..everything is occurring within It.
Yes, but that "first order" is, in a way, just the sum of the "second order". We are that.

If there's nothing extra to be experienced about the "first order", and it doesn't do anything, and it doesn't dream up things etc., then why do you agree with DAM?
DAM is expressing nonduality in a different fashion. The message is the same ultimately.

Atla
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:59 pm

Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:53 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:51 pm
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:35 pm
No I am Ramu, not DAM. We agree because we are non dualists, not physicalists. The true nature of Consciousness has been known for thousands of years. Brain does not generate consciousness. Consciousness, (Source, Being, True Self), is first order. Everything else is second order. In other words..everything is occurring within It.
Yes, but that "first order" is, in a way, just the sum of the "second order". We are that.

If there's nothing extra to be experienced about the "first order", and it doesn't do anything, and it doesn't dream up things etc., then why do you agree with DAM?
DAM is expressing nonduality in a different fashion. The message is the same ultimately.
Well her endless word salads seem to paint a different picture: she really seems to think that the Consciousness does things "as a whole".

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Arising_uk
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Different strokes for different folks that's all.

Who put the meaning in the word ''hallucination'' ? ..who who who..who lets the dogs out? :lol:
What ever you say Humpty.
To be aware of any thing is to hallucinate that thing into existence...since there are no things. ...
If there are no things then how would you become aware of them to 'hallucinate' them into existence?
There is no thing seeing an image ....where does the image come from?...the universe is one big hallucination. ...
Except one could argue that there is a noumena and that is what leads each living body to create what it 'see's' dependent upon its senses.
That which is aware is not a thing.
How are you aware of this?
Being injured and in pain is the hallucination of being injured and in pain. There is nothing experiencing that, there is only the experience, pain is the experience. No one owns that pain, else they could make it disappear. ...
Not heard of local anaesthetics?
Being injured by a big red bus is just one of the many experiences within life which is one big giant hallucination within which all other hallucinations are couched, some hallucinations are more powerful than others...and any one (no one) taking psychotropic or hallucinogenic substances aka appearances interacting with the brain another appearance, aka appearances affecting other appearances...will be able to tell you that...I mean be witness to that effect that no thing is causing. ...
I've taken my fair share and the body and an external world are always there.
The cause is in the effect, and the effect is in the cause, they are one and the same in the moment. All changing appearances within the changeless witness that never appeared. ...
If this witness never appeared how do you know there is one?
You need to think deeper into the metaphysics of reality. ...
Do I. Tell me how you go about this 'deeper thinking'?
Why not?

What's stopping it?
What's stopping what?

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Dontaskme
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:21 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
Dontaskme wrote:Different strokes for different folks that's all.

Who put the meaning in the word ''hallucination'' ? ..who who who..who lets the dogs out? :lol:
What ever you say Humpty.
Language is known by not-knowing, knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality. The body has no knowledge of itself, knowing is of the mind, it's a superimposed idea upon not-knowing..the mind is a myth, it's creates the illusion that there is a first person singular pronoun ( I ) that knows. There is no such entity. The entity is an hallucintaion, a belief, a thought, a dream character, a figment of the imagination or whatever.
There is nothing known outside of language ( knowledge ) ..knowledge is a fiction.
To be aware of any thing is to hallucinate that thing into existence...since there are no things. ...
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
If there are no things then how would you become aware of them to 'hallucinate' them into existence?
There is no thing seeing an image ....where does the image come from?...an image is an optical illusion of light, no thing has ever seen light, light is the seeing that cannot be seen. The seen is an empty image of the imageless seeing, an hallucination/dream. There is no thing in the image except an empty invisible thought.
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
Except one could argue that there is a noumena and that is what leads each living body to create what it 'see's' dependent upon its senses.
The body sees nothing, the body is known via concept that no thing is making up..aka knowledge. All knowledge is not-knowing knowledge, an illusion of a mind that has never been seen.

That which is aware is not a thing.
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
How are you aware of this?
There is no you being aware it is aware. The you is AWARENESS.

Being injured and in pain is the hallucination of being injured and in pain. There is nothing experiencing that, there is only the experience, pain is the experience. No one owns that pain, else they could make it disappear. ...
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
Not heard of local anaesthetics?
This is just more knowledge ..Appearances affecting other appearances will cause effects in those appearances...this is all known knowledge, known by no one.
Try getting rid of pain without using another appearance, and you'll soon find out that the pain is not your pain.

Being injured by a big red bus is just one of the many experiences within life which is one big giant hallucination within which all other hallucinations are couched, some hallucinations are more powerful than others...and any one (no one) taking psychotropic or hallucinogenic substances aka appearances interacting with the brain another appearance, aka appearances affecting other appearances...will be able to tell you that...I mean be witness to that effect that no thing is causing. ...
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
I've taken my fair share and the body and an external world are always there.
There is no knowledge of an external world except what the mind makes up, a mind that has never been seen...knowledge informs the illusory nature of the knower...there isn't one...hence dreamscape reality...aka make-belief. Infinite intelligence is not owned by the body, it is the body, because the body is functioning all by itself...intelligence is not owned by some intellectual entity called the mind, there is no such entity...except the conceptual thought...aka make-belief... identification with the thought turns into the artifical belief, giving fictional autonomy to the sense of what is essentially the no self of pure being. There is no thing being being, there is just being. Being doesn't need to think itself into being to be ..being just is. All life is just being (uncreated)...'Thought' creates the idea there is an I being this being ..which is already HERENOW, NOWHERE...so 'thought' is not what being is. 'Thought' is what being isn't. Thought is not-knowing knowing...a fictional story upon nothing.
How do I know this? ..I don't...knowledge does.
For what am I but this not-knowing known.

Life doesn't ask such questions....a question can only arise to the idea that there is some thing here that wants to know something, when in truth everything is known, but not by the body....knowing is known by no body.

The cause is in the effect, and the effect is in the cause, they are one and the same in the moment. All changing appearances within the changeless witness that never appeared. ...
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
If this witness never appeared how do you know there is one?
The body doesn't know anything, what knows is knowledge, where does knowledge come from? ..it comes from ''thought'' ...where does ''thought'' come from? ..what is a ''thought''? what does 'thought' look like? ...no body thinks, if the body thinks then ask your arm or leg to think about the answer to what 2 + 2 = ? ...no thing is thinking, there is no thinker...reality is an illusory world of empty knowledge aka this assumed known knowledge by not-knowing.

You need to think deeper into the metaphysics of reality. ...
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
Do I. Tell me how you go about this 'deeper thinking'?
By realising there is no thinker..and that thoughts do not exist as real things in and of themselves, and that thoughts are just knowledge...aka the invisible visible, the unknown knowing, the imageless image.

Why not? What's stopping it?
Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:37 pm
What's stopping what?
What's stopping the 'why question' to arise?
A question is only born out of the answers you already have, since who exactly is it that is asking the question? and there is your answer.
You are infinite source of all your knowledge...what source is is unknowable.

The body does not ask questions...the only question is who or what does? and there is your answer.

You have no knowledge of anything except what you make up out of your own not-knowing Source.


.

roydop
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by roydop » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 am
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am
nonduality is not a belief system...its all based on direct experience of the absolute..
The absolute can't be experienced, that's just a belief system.
The Absolute is experience itself.

It's hilarious how the thought process is taken to be the reality/truth, rather than beingness.

Non thought = no beliefs. A thought lasts about one second. Then ego holds onto that thought and draws a line to another held onto belief that it brings up. Voila! There's an identity that that is exactly what you are not.

Atla
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Atla » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:39 pm

roydop wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:26 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 am
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am
nonduality is not a belief system...its all based on direct experience of the absolute..
The absolute can't be experienced, that's just a belief system.
The Absolute is experience itself.

It's hilarious how the thought process is taken to be the reality/truth, rather than beingness.

Non thought = no beliefs. A thought lasts about one second. Then ego holds onto that thought and draws a line to another held onto belief that it brings up. Voila! There's an identity that that is exactly what you are not.
Again: there is nothing extra to be experienced about the Absolute/beingness. People who think that there is, still hold onto a false identity.

And just because you have such a remarkably low brain activity that you can completely stop thinking in any noticable way, that's not true for many people.

roydop
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by roydop » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:11 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:39 pm
roydop wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:26 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 am

The absolute can't be experienced, that's just a belief system.
The Absolute is experience itself.

It's hilarious how the thought process is taken to be the reality/truth, rather than beingness.

Non thought = no beliefs. A thought lasts about one second. Then ego holds onto that thought and draws a line to another held onto belief that it brings up. Voila! There's an identity that that is exactly what you are not.
Again: there is nothing extra to be experienced about the Absolute/beingness. People who think that there is, still hold onto a false identity.
To be free from suffering is kinda special.

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Dontaskme
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:43 am

Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:53 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:51 pm
Ramu wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:35 pm
No I am Ramu, not DAM. We agree because we are non dualists, not physicalists. The true nature of Consciousness has been known for thousands of years. Brain does not generate consciousness. Consciousness, (Source, Being, True Self), is first order. Everything else is second order. In other words..everything is occurring within It.
Yes, but that "first order" is, in a way, just the sum of the "second order". We are that.

If there's nothing extra to be experienced about the "first order", and it doesn't do anything, and it doesn't dream up things etc., then why do you agree with DAM?
DAM is expressing nonduality in a different fashion. The message is the same ultimately.
Good answer. All different paths / knowledge lead to the same source, namely, here now Nowhere.

Same as it ever was, is, and always will be.

.

Dam is an expression, an expression of source aka of infinity. Dam isn't doing anything Dam is done.

Knowledge is always secondary after the fact.



.

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Dontaskme
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:03 am

roydop wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:11 am
Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:39 pm
roydop wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:26 pm


The Absolute is experience itself.

It's hilarious how the thought process is taken to be the reality/truth, rather than beingness.

Non thought = no beliefs. A thought lasts about one second. Then ego holds onto that thought and draws a line to another held onto belief that it brings up. Voila! There's an identity that that is exactly what you are not.
Again: there is nothing extra to be experienced about the Absolute/beingness. People who think that there is, still hold onto a false identity.
To be free from suffering is kinda special.
Yes, that's ultimately what the non-dual message is pointing to...to be free of suffering, is to be free of self...suffering can only arise to the sense of self.

Non-duality is the ultimate realisation via ''thought'' there is no self to suffer. The thought I am suffering is separation.... Thought divides this direct immediate experience into two parts, one who is experiencing the experience...there is no such division, experience is one unitary action.
Thoughts belong to no entity. Thought is the entity, an empty invisible entity...aka imagination the source of all knowledge.

Where is imagination? ...it's herenow nowhere. What is imagination? it is knowledge.

There simply is No self..there is here only the Absolute...it is not in relationship with anything. Any relative idea about the Absolute is absurd.



.

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Dontaskme
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:44 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:39 pm

And just because you have such a remarkably low brain activity that you can completely stop thinking in any noticable way, that's not true for many people.
The idea you have a brain or that you can stop thinking is knowledge...it's pure fiction made of empty concepts no one is making.

This is not even 'nihilism' for there is no self here except an empty concept known...aka ''thought'' ..but when 'thought' tries to look at itself, get a peek up it's own skirt it sees nothing...it cannot see anything but more 'thought'. There simply is nothing to see in the true emptiness of being, and all thought and knowledge is made of fiction, all pure emptiness appearing full as believed...belief being another 'thought.

You can test this out for yourself right now...what are concepts appearing in? ..look at your hand, what surrounds the hand? you'll see there is nothing behind the hand except space, so what has created that space? the answer is ''thought'' and 'thought' has also created the hand in the same instantaneous moment...so ultimately there is nothing creating the hand except the 'thought' ..and there appears the apparent illusory separation. No 'thought' ...no 'separation'...separation is an illusion of 'thought' which doesn't exist except as a belief...which is more 'thought'.

The thought of 'you' is born of the unborn also 'you' aka the eternal void out of which every thing comes..the void doesn't COME OR GO...only that which is born dies, aka knowledge, aka 'thought'

'You' has no way of knowing it is alive or dead...knowledge informs, and knowledge is 'thought' and 'thought' is the unborn born..aka knowledge.

Knowledge separates... born out of the unborn unknown ABSOLUTE. That which is born will die as knowledge dictates. Although in reality there is nothing living and dying except knowledge, which is a fiction... aka imagination aka the not-knowing knowing.

The mind plays with these concepts and out of that knowledge comes the dream world of play for no one. The belief gives each character in the play it's own separate conceptual autonomy, ultimately, nothing is happening, because here now, nowhere, is only the void attempting to fulfil itself, that cannot be filled...because there is no thing to fill it..it's ultimately empty to the core...like all dreams.

Every thing automatically defaults to Zero Point...aka FREEDOM...the ultimate way to live...and life is already living this ultimate freedom right now.

All suffering and misery and confusion belongs to the mind that invented it, aka knowledge, ultimately, there is no such knowledge, except the fictional belief.


.

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Dontaskme
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Re: No Birth - No Death - No Death - No Birth.

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:04 pm

Ultimately: I AM not telling you anything you don't already know.



“It is important to expect nothing, to take every experience, including the negative ones, as merely steps on the path, and to proceed.”
― Ram Dass


“We're fascinated by the words--but where we meet is in the silence behind them.”
― ram dass


“The quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
― Ram Dass


“We're all just walking each other home.”
― Ram Dass


“I'm not interested in being a "lover." I'm interested in only being love.”
― ram dass


“Every religion is the product of the conceptual mind attempting to describe the mystery.”
― ram dass


https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/14525.Ram_Dass

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