Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:49 am You are pre-supposing a clockwork (deterministic) universe.
In a way... Problem is that the universe / the system is not finite and thus there is no way to pinpoint a state A or even to calculate what state B will be like a millisecond later.
Yes, we can do that to a certain degree by artificially limiting the size of the system so we can predict what happens next, but, while this is how science works, it is not how the whole/universe works. There is a chance, however slim, that in the next second earth will be pulverised by some cosmic event (or whatever) and with it all science goes down the drain.
I am not saying that scientific calculation/approximation via cutting the infinite into virtual slices is useless - it obviously works for many applications - but we are ultimately on the wrong track...
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:49 am Humans like determinism/predictability/control.
We sure do :-)
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:49 am The end result is determinism. What happens is EXACTLY what I expected will happen. Because I made it happen.
The result is a belief in determinism.

What happens might be what you (the blackbox) expect, but this is only so because you analyse the result from an extremely limited perspective.

It's really all only a matter of perspective:
When you look AS thought you will see only what you want to see (or rather: what has been put into the black box) - eg determinism, a self in control etc etc
When you look AT thought you will see the full picture, truth, reality. You can look at the black box from the outside and see of how little importance it actually is.
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am In a way... Problem is that the universe / the system is not finite and thus there is no way to pinpoint a state A or even to calculate what state B will be like a millisecond later.
If the universe is infinite then none of our tools for understanding it are ANY good.
Quantum physics is moving further and further from any local hidden variable explanations.
Can you even begin to reason about instant causality across an infinite universe?

Probability theory fails utterly and dismally because p-values are non-sensical in an infinite decision-space. Any "statistically significant" pattern is incidental not coincidental. It would be a waste of time to even attempt to understand it. Admit defeat, grab a beer and enjoy your remaining time in this mind-fuck-verse.

I am a bounded rationalist. Again - human value/desire. The universe MAY be infinite (in which case we are fucked) so I really hope it's finite.
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am Yes, we can do that to a certain degree by artificially limiting the size of the system so we can predict what happens next, but, while this is how science works, it is not how the whole/universe works.
See above. If the universe is NOT a finite/closed system - drinking beer is far better use of our time than discussing it.
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am There is a chance, however slim, that in the next second earth will be pulverised by some cosmic event (or whatever) and with it all science goes down the drain.
Naturally. So we are better off not-putting all our eggs in one basket called Earth. It's kinda hard getting off this planet though...
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am I am not saying that scientific calculation/approximation via cutting the infinite into virtual slices is useless - it obviously works for many applications - but we are ultimately on the wrong track...
If the universe is infinite - there is no right track. Unless... infinite universe means infinite energy. in which case - as soon as we become deities. We can build anything to our liking! Because - infinite/cheap/free energy!
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am The result is a belief in determinism.
I don't understand how you use the phrase "belief in X". If determinism is a human value. Then to say "I believe in determinism" is the same as saying "I value determinism". I want determinism. I strive and work towards determinism.

But then ....I believe in God.... I value God... I want God. I strive and work towards God.
I believe in Truth. I value Truth. I want Truth. I strive and work towards Truth.

Something doesn't fit.

Or it does fit IF Truth and God are both human values, not ontological notions.

After all absolute determinism requires omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence. e.g it requires us to becomes gods.
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am What happens might be what you (the blackbox) expect, but this is only so because you analyse the result from an extremely limited perspective.
Do you have a less limited perspective to analyze it from? If not - this line of reasoning is pointless.
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am It's really all only a matter of perspective:
The human perspective is all we have.
AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am When you look AS thought you will see only what you want to see (or rather: what has been put into the black box) - eg determinism, a self in control etc etc
When you look AT thought you will see the full picture, truth, reality. You can look at the black box from the outside and see of how little importance it actually is.
That is ridiculous simply because you imply to have transcended your own humanity. You haven't. It's still a human perspective. Only one devoid of any value.

And then? Abandon all hopes, dreams, desires and love for mankind?

If that is what your transcendental perspective leads to - then I don't want it.

I have been in the Total Perspective Vortex. Having seen the full picture - truth, reality and all - it strikes me pertinently obvious that we, humans are the only entity in the entire universe that cares about what does or doesn't happen next.

Creationism is about creating. Not about being created.
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am If the universe is NOT a finite/closed system - drinking beer is far better use of our time than discussing the universe.
Cheers to that.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am It would be a waste of time to even attempt to understand it.
Agree, but we are still trying...
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am The universe MAY be infinite (in which case we are fucked)
If it is infinite then you can not be separate from it - then you are it - its thus quite the opposite, if it is finite then we are fucked.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am But then ...
I believe in Truth. I value Truth. I want Truth. I strive and work towards Truth.

Something doesn't fit.
What doesn't fit is that you don't have to strive towards what you ultimately are.
There is no path to it if one is already there.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am The human perspective is all we have.
No, the human perspective is the one of you looking AS thought.
The true perspective is You looking AT thought (as well as at "everything" else).
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am Do you have a less limited perspective to analyze it from?
I can look from both perspectives and know the difference.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am And then? Abandon all hopes, dreams, desires and love for mankind?

If that is what your perspective leads to - throw it in the trash can.
My take on that:

What does hope do to you? You are afraid of a certain future and hope it wont happen. Hope keeps fear going as it makes acceptance impossible.
Of course you don't have to accept whatever is dished out for you - but you also don't have to fight what is. Its important to choose your fight and accept the rest - hope has nothing to do with fighting hard for a cause.

Having dreams and working towards their realisation is great as long as you don't define yourself through them. If they become a burden better find another dream.

Desires... some are natural, some mind made. Many mind-made desires are useless, but fun, some useless, but dangerous, some useless, but ... whatever

Love, not the one that is actually just strong desire, but real love, is, in a way, what we are - what This is - this becomes more and more obvious when looking AT thought and not AS thought. Why? Because artificial, mind-made, separation vanishes.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am I have been in the Total Perspective Vortex. Having seen the full picture - truth, reality and all - it strikes me pertinently obvious that we, humans are the only entity in the entire universe that cares about what does or doesn't happen next.
Yes in a way, this is true. We care about what happens next while the whole/reality couldn't care less.
The only issue is that before we thought problems into existence they actually didn't exist (and even now they only exist in our heads).
So why should reality care if everything is perfect anyway? (doesn't mean that what we do because of having such skewed ideas is "perfect")
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:47 am
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am If the universe is NOT a finite/closed system - drinking beer is far better use of our time than discussing the universe.
Cheers to that.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am It would be a waste of time to even attempt to understand it.
Agree, but we are still trying...
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am The universe MAY be infinite (in which case we are fucked)
If it is infinite then you can not be separate from it - then you are it - its thus quite the opposite, if it is finite then we are fucked.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am But then ...
I believe in Truth. I value Truth. I want Truth. I strive and work towards Truth.

Something doesn't fit.
What doesn't fit is that you don't have to strive towards what you ultimately are.
There is no path to it if one is already there.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am The human perspective is all we have.
No, the human perspective is the one of you looking AS thought.
The true perspective is You looking AT thought (as well as at "everything" else).
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am Do you have a less limited perspective to analyze it from?
I can look from both perspectives and know the difference.
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 am And then? Abandon all hopes, dreams, desires and love for mankind?

If that is what your perspective leads to - throw it in the trash can.
My take on that:

What does hope do to you? You are afraid of a certain future and hope it wont happen. Hope keeps fear going as it makes acceptance impossible.
Of course you don't have to accept whatever is dished out for you - but you also don't have to fight what is. Its important to choose your fight and accept the rest - hope has nothing to do with fighting hard for a cause.

Having dreams and working towards their realisation is great as long as you don't define yourself through them. If they become a burden better find another dream.

Desires... some are natural, some mind made. Many mind-made desires are useless, but fun, some useless, but dangerous, some useless, but ... whatever

Love, not the one that is actually just strong desire, but real love, is, in a way, what we are - what This is - this becomes more and more obvious when looking AT thought and not AS thought. Why? Because artificial, mind-made, separation vanishes.
Through your perspective juxtaposition have you taken heed of the fact that 99.9999% of all species that ever walked the earth are now extinct?

Reality isn’t our friend.

If that is the acceptance you preach - you may do well to work at hospice where you can comfort the condemned.

I do not go gentle into the good night...

I appreciate/want/desire power over my own destiny. The odds are against me, but not against us.
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:55 am I do not go gentle into the good night...

I appreciate/want/desire power over my own destiny. The odds are against me, but not against us.
Sure... lets go to war against... hmmm... who?
Oh well... I am sure we'll find the one responsible sooner or later.

Or... we could just enjoy this place and ask a bit less from it - actually live like "99.9999% of all species" live and have lived.
In the Now! Not in constant worry about the future, not in constant pain due to unfulfilled desire, not having to figure it all out, not having to live on others' misery, not believing we are the pinnacle of creation...

I rather go gentle into the good night after a wonderful day.
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:01 am
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:55 am I do not go gentle into the good night...

I appreciate/want/desire power over my own destiny. The odds are against me, but not against us.
Sure... lets go to war against... hmmm... who?
Oh well... I am sure we'll find the one responsible sooner or later.

Or... we could just enjoy this place and ask a bit less from it - actually live like "99.9999% of all species" live and have lived.
In the Now! Not in constant worry about the future, not in constant pain due to unfulfilled desire, not having to figure it all out, not having to live on others' misery, not believing we are the pinnacle of creation...

I rather go gentle into the good night after a wonderful day.
😂😂😂😂😂😂

War? The witch hunt mindset.... it is always somebody else’s fault.

I say let’s set a new high score for non-extinction.

Let’s colonise planets and galaxies!
Let’s become the dominant species in the universe.

Why?

Why NOT?
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:07 am I say let’s set a new high score for non-extinction.

Let’s colonise planets and galaxies!
Let’s become the dominant species in the universe.
Sure, why not...
Hope we have learned how to look after our own planet before we conquer other ones... otherwise we are more of a spreading disease than symbiont.

If you agree we can leave it with that - future will tell if we reach a new high score!
In the meanwhile, good luck and all the best to you.
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:18 am
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:07 am I say let’s set a new high score for non-extinction.

Let’s colonise planets and galaxies!
Let’s become the dominant species in the universe.
Sure, why not...
Hope we have learned how to look after our own planet before we conquer other ones... otherwise we are more of a spreading disease than symbiont.

If you agree we can leave it with that - future will tell if we reach a new high score!
In the meanwhile, good luck and all the best to you.
I don’t agree. Humans are not a disease.

We do not need to “look after” the planet as if the planet is somehow more important than us.

It is only as important as is necessary to sustain life. It is a resource and a habitat and we should not make it uninhabitable (duh!) but there are many forces beyond our control which are planet-killers. Asteroids and comets for example.

I have no feelings towards Earth if we have 10000s like it.

If you put the “well-being” of planets before the well-being of humans we have a fundamental rift in values.
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:52 am If you put the “well-being” of planets before the well-being of humans we have a fundamental rift in values.
I am not putting planets before humans, or anything before something else.
I believe we should treat anything/anyone with the same respect - in a the same way as we ourselves would like to be treated by others.
Would you like to be treated as we treat our planet?

No, we don't have to look after it, but we also don't have to abuse it.
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:43 am
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:52 am If you put the “well-being” of planets before the well-being of humans we have a fundamental rift in values.
I am not putting planets before humans, or anything before something else.
I believe we should treat anything/anyone with the same respect - in a the same way as we ourselves would like to be treated by others.
Would you like to be treated as we treat our planet?

No, we don't have to look after it, but we also don't have to abuse it.
How much respect did you pay to the toilet paper you used for your morning dump?

None whatsoever, I imagine.

Because it is so plentiful...

I imagine life would be different if you had only one square to work with? Same goes with planets.

Life would be way different if we had 20 of them. And we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if we had 20000.
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:08 am How much respect did you pay to the toilet paper you used for your morning dump?

None whatsoever, I imagine.

Because it is so plentiful...

I imagine life would be different if you had only one square to work with? Same goes with planets.

Life would be way different if we had 20 of them. And we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if we had 20000.
I used the toilet paper the same way I use the air that I breathe or the water that I drink. Just because I don’t give every piece of paper or every sip of water special consideration it doesn’t mean that I treat it without respect or attempt to waste it, pollute it or stockpile it for my personal gain.

How much respect do you pay all the humans you walk past on your way to work?
Would you treat them differently if there were 70bn of them instead “only” 7bn or if there were only 1000? Is something worth more if there is only a few of them instead of many?
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:22 am I used the toilet paper the same way I use the air that I breathe or the water that I drink. Just because I don’t give every piece of paper or every sip of water special consideration it doesn’t mean that I treat it without respect or attempt to waste it, pollute it or stockpile it for my personal gain.
You clearly see a distinction between treating something with respect vs treating something without respect.

Since you claim that you treat water with respect, could you give men an example of what it would look like (empirically) if you were to treat water without respect?

If you can't draw such an empirical distinction your conception of 'respect' is meaningless.

The eternal Philosophical error: drawing distinctions without a difference.
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:29 am You clearly see a distinction between treating something with respect vs treating something without respect.

Since you claim that you treat water with respect.What would it look like (empirically) if you were to treat water without respect?
If I wouldn’t respect it I would waste it, pollute it, make it unusable for other organisms etc etc
As I respect it I aim to avoid these activities.
Respect is not only a mental attitude, its not only the thought that counts - you actually will have to do something.
Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik »

AlexW wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:38 am If I wouldn’t respect it I would waste it, pollute it, make it unusable for other organisms etc etc
As I respect it I aim to avoid these activities.
Respect is not only a mental attitude, its not only the thought that counts - you actually will have to do something.
So IF water was an infinite, renewable and single-use (disposable) resource.

Or if it was infinitely cheap to distil ocean water, and filter/re-salinate it before returning it back into the ocean.
Or infinitely cheap to condense water from atmosphere then re-evaporate it back when we are done.
Or each house was a closed-loop system with only top-ups for that which is lost through waste.

If we had mechanisms/systems that do all that for us THEN you couldn't possibly disrespect water eve if you intended to?
Last edited by Logik on Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
AlexW
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by AlexW »

No, it doesn’t matter how much of something is available.
Do you respect yourself?
If yes, then you have to respect everything!
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