Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:55 am

Age wrote:
What is wrong with expressing a truth instead of making a claim that could be falsified anyway
It is a convention within science that hypotheses have to be subject to potential falsification
Falsification is how science acquires knowledge so it is actually quite an important procedure

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:10 am

Age wrote:
WHY claim some thing which could be falsified anyway ?

WHY NOT just LOOK AT the Truth of things instead ?
As I said falsification actually leads to new knowledge which is why its necessary
It is always provisional and hypotheses are necessary to acquire more knowledge
You can look at the truth of things but knowledge [ not truth ] is only provisional

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:15 am

Age wrote:
WHY do people NOT answer these questions ?
I have just answered those questions as you can see
As to why others do not answer them I do not know

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:46 am
Age wrote:
Why would one have / take a default position which could be WRONG when they could just LOOK AT the Truth of things instead
A default position is merely a position that is true at the time based upon all available knowledge
But the claim 'All swans are white' may NOT be true, at any time.

What is actually true is, 'As far as i am aware there are only white swans', or, 'From what i have seen there are only white swans', or, 'i have only seen white swans'.

Saying or claiming 'All swans are white' is NOT necessarily true.

It is not an absolute position and so is subject to revision with the acquisition of new knowledge
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:46 am
All swans are white would be the default position until a black swan was discovered
That might be the "default position", for "YOU", but it is NOT, for Me.

Can you understand what I am saying here?

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:33 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:55 am
Age wrote:
What is wrong with expressing a truth instead of making a claim that could be falsified anyway
It is a convention within science that hypotheses have to be subject to potential falsification
I agree what happens when a hypotheses is made up, then that it is subject to potential falsification. The definition of 'hypotheses' is roughly THAT what is subject to falsification.

My question is asking what is wrong with just expressing a TRUTH instead of expressing 'that' which could be FALSE anyway?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:55 am
Falsification is how science acquires knowledge so it is actually quite an important procedure
If that is what you think, then so be it. Some might suggest that just LOOKING AT and SEEING the Truth of things instead might be a bit more important.

To me, making up theories that could be FALSIFIED instead of just LOOKING AT what IS actually Real and True anyway seems like an extremely slow process to make discoveries.

What IS actually Real and True is HERE for ALL to SEE, right NOW. So, WHY guess/assume/theorize/make up stories instead?

By the way what does a person who has the, so called, "default position" 'All swans are white' have to now do with science and hypotheses?

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:40 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:10 am
Age wrote:
WHY claim some thing which could be falsified anyway ?

WHY NOT just LOOK AT the Truth of things instead ?
As I said falsification actually leads to new knowledge which is why its necessary
WHY not bypass the guessing/assuming/falsification process and just come to new knowledge almost instantly?

YOU have the ability to do this, so why not do it?

Producing some thing and then proposing that, which could be falsified, is a very drawn out and unnecessary process.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:10 am
It is always provisional and hypotheses are necessary to acquire more knowledge
Hypotheses are NOT necessary to acquire more knowledge. Hypotheses just lead to more hypothesized knowledge, which could then be FALSIFIED.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:10 am
You can look at the truth of things but knowledge [ not truth ] is only provisional
My very point.

If knowledge is provisional while Truth is actually HERE NOW, then WHY go down the path of obtaining more knowledge, which could then be FALSIFIED?

If 'facts' can NOT change but 'knowledge' can, then obviously one would be more sensible to obtain than the other one is.

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:48 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:15 am
Age wrote:
WHY do people NOT answer these questions ?
I have just answered those questions as you can see
Did you? Where?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:15 am
As to why others do not answer them I do not know
I asked five questions in that post that you are responding to now, here. Those questions were:

But who, "in their right and/or sound Mind" as some might say, would have/take that position?
Why would one have/take a "default position", which could be WRONG, when they could just LOOK AT the Truth of things instead?

If it was I, then I would just be, literally, of the view, and say; 'I have not yet seen a swan other than white ones'.

What is wrong with expressing a truth, instead of making a claim that could be falsified anyway?
WHY claim some thing, which could be falsified anyway?
WHY NOT just LOOK AT the Truth of things instead?

I can NOT see where you answered 'these' questions. I must of missed it. Can you point me to where you answered 'those' questions that you say you just answered?

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am

Age wrote:
To me making up theories that could be FALSIFIED instead of just LOOKING AT what IS
actually Real and True anyway seems like an extremely slow process to make discoveries
Can you give a specific example where looking at what is would actually have resulted in knowledge being acquired more quickly ?
That is more quickly than through the scientific process of using testable hypotheses that were capable of potential falsification ?

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:58 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am
Age wrote:
To me making up theories that could be FALSIFIED instead of just LOOKING AT what IS
actually Real and True anyway seems like an extremely slow process to make discoveries
Can you give a specific example where looking at what is would actually have resulted in knowledge being acquired more quickly ?
That is more quickly than through the scientific process of using testable hypotheses that were capable of potential falsification ?
I can NOT think of any at this precise moment. But if you give an example of what is hypothesized, then I will see if I can do it for you.

Ah I just thought of one, that is if this is hypothesized. The Universe began at the big bang. If that is an hypotheses, then I will give a specific example of where looking at what II instead would actually have resulted in knowledge being acquired more quickly.

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:00 am

Age wrote:
WHY not bypass the guessing / assuming / falsification process and just come to new knowledge almost instantly ?

YOU have the ability to do this so why not do it ?
But I do not have the ability to do it so how can I ?

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:13 am

Age wrote:
The Universe began at the big bang . If that is a hypothesis then I will give a specific example of where
looking at what IS instead would actually have resulted in knowledge being acquired more quickly
Give the example explaining precisely what the knowledge is and how it could be acquired more quickly
And can you also provide an example where new knowledge not yet known can be acquired more quickly

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:20 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:00 am
Age wrote:
WHY not bypass the guessing / assuming / falsification process and just come to new knowledge almost instantly ?

YOU have the ability to do this so why not do it ?
But I do not have the ability to do it so how can I ?
The ability is there, so you have access to that ability. You just need to learn, and gain the know-how of, how to use it.

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:44 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:13 am
Age wrote:
The Universe began at the big bang . If that is a hypothesis then I will give a specific example of where
looking at what IS instead would actually have resulted in knowledge being acquired more quickly
Give the example explaining precisely what the knowledge is and how it could be acquired more quickly
The precise knowledge, which is in stark contrast to the Universe having a beginning is; The Universe exists forever, NOW. That is; When the word 'Universe' is defined as ALL-THERE-IS, and that definition is agreed upon and accepted, then the Universe never began.

How this 'fact' is acquired more quickly than looking to see how the Universe began is because there is NO guessing nor NO assuming going on. Just LOOKING AT what happens (IS) instead of what happens (maybe) leads to acquiring, so called, "new" knowledge far quicker. There is no time wasted on SEEING if what is proposed is false or not.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:13 am
And can you also provide an example where new knowledge not yet known can be acquired more quickly
Through the exact same process of just LOOKING AT what IS actually True and Real instead of looking from guesses, assumptions, beliefs, opinions, views, values, perceptions. This just takes being Truly Wanting to LOOK differently, from a Truly OPEN and HONEST perspective. It really is that simple and easy.

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Speakpigeon » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:51 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:09 am
Speakpigeon wrote: But may be you have not seen any black swans
In which case the default position is that all swans are white
Till some one sees a black one and the claim is then falsified
OK, so suppose no one has ever reported any black swan, only white ones.
Suppose nobody has ever seen them, but there are actually a few black swans.
Suppose also that John is a respected zoologist.
Now, according to your conception of knowledge, it is true that John knows all swans are white.

Suppose now that John learns that some black swans have been observed. He goes there with other zoologists and see the black swans for himself.
So, according to your theory, now it is true that John never knew there were only white swans since there were some black swans.
So, your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John never knew there were only white swans.
EB

Age
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:13 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:51 pm
So, your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John never knew there were only white swans.
EB
The Truth IS a human being labelled "john" once THOUGHT they knew some thing and that that person never knew there were only white swans.
That person, like ALL other human beings, will always only THINK they know some thing.
And, when they start LOOKING, SEEING, and EXPRESSING from that perspective, then the "world" will start becoming a much better place to live.

The real and actual Truth of things can ALWAYS be SEEN, almost instantly. That is; when one is Truly OPEN to SEEING It.

And that is WHY it is BETTER to always remain OPEN.

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