Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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AlexW
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:06 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:13 pm
...the map is the only experience here, albeit an illusory dream object, it's still an experience...no thing is experiencing.

To say there is no direct experience of an object as an illusory thought, is to negate the direct experiencer which is awareness. They go together, arise mutually in the same instant. And that they arise mutually in the same instant ..this can also be seen that there is not-a-thing being experienced directly, nor is there a direct experience of an experiencer being experienced experiencing not-a-thing...you see?
Let me clarify what I mean when I refer to the "map".

To me, the map is the objective world that is (seemingly) created by conceptual thought. Of course thoughts/concepts are known (not by a separate knower etc etc.. we have established the details already...) - they are as much "part of" direct experience as seeing or hearing, but the ideas they contain, the things and objects they refer to are NOT. The world of separation, the world of borders, of independently existing, separate objects is thought into "existence" - as such it isn't real. And what isn't real can never be directly experienced. It can be thought of, the thought is experienced, but what the thought talks about, can not be experienced.

Eg: You can think about an apple, but you can never experience the object "apple". Yes, you can experience the thought/concept "apple" but not the thing/object.
This becomes obvious when investigating experience and realising that one never actually experiences separation, never experiences borders, distance, time, processes or things.

You always experience the undivided whole - while thought, on the other hand, constantly talks about the parts of the whole. Now people tend to believe that they also experience these separate parts, that they experience distance or time, but this is ultimately not true - you always only experience the absolute.

Now, saying that "the map is the only experience here, albeit an illusory dream object" is, in my opinion, not correct. As I never experience "illusory dream objects" - I always experience reality/the absolute. A dream object can not be experienced, it can be thought of, believed in, and thus taken for real, but never directly experienced.

"To say there is no direct experience of an object" is NOT to "negate the direct experiencer which is awareness" - it negates the idea that separate objects, which are what conceptual thought points to, can actually be experienced. It also negates the experiencer, but it doesn't negate awareness, which, to me, is the same as reality/the absolute. As such, awareness does not experience but rather IS experience/reality itself.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:18 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:06 am

Now, saying that "the map is the only experience here, albeit an illusory dream object" is, in my opinion, not correct. As I never experience "illusory dream objects" - I always experience reality/the absolute. A dream object can not be experienced, it can be thought of, believed in, and thus taken for real, but never directly experienced.
Again, there is no I except the concept of I (conceptual dream) all knowledge is 'thought' via mental activity unique to humans. (Nothing but pure dreamscape) in that KNOWLEDGE informs the illusory nature of reality. That which is KNOWN cannot know anything, it's all pure imagination. (conceptual dream)

I never said a dream object can be experienced. I said the dream object including the person speaking these words now (another dream object) IS the experience. I did not say the dream is being EXPERIENCED. For something to be ''Experienced'' requires an ''Experiencer''..there is no Experiencer except in this conceptual dream and the dream is all there is. The dream is the ''Experience'' not-a-thing is experiencing.
There is no ''experience'' there without the 'thought' ..it's all ''thought'' no one is thinking. (conceptual dream) MAP
AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:06 am
"To say there is no direct experience of an object" is NOT to "negate the direct experiencer which is awareness" - it negates the idea that separate objects, which are what conceptual thought points to, can actually be experienced. It also negates the experiencer, but it doesn't negate awareness, which, to me, is the same as reality/the absolute.
You cannot tell yourself you are aware. That's back in the dream of separation again, in thought.
There is no thought without a thinker, no thinker without a thought..they are both appearances, the dream of separation.

There is awareness of the dream as the 'thought' I am dreaming which is no thing objectifying itself. No thing is just another concept for awareness...The conceptual dream is the only experience...not that it's being EXPERIENCED because it's just a DREAM...it's empty to the core, there is no thing there experiencing the dream or being the experiencer, or dream being experienced.

DIRECT EXPERIENCE is the letting go by no one aka ''thought'' of these illusions aka ''thoughts'' for the emptiness that they are. That's the only direct experience here.
AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:06 am
you always only experience the absolute.
This is a 'thought' (conceptual dream) in awareness that cannot be experienced.
AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:06 am
As such, awareness does not experience but rather IS experience/reality itself.
This again is a 'thought' (conceptual dream) in awareness that cannot be experienced. There is no reality or awareness except in the conceptual dream of separation. There is no such reality as a non-conceptual reality or absolute awareness. There is no such thing as Non-duality, reality is Non-dual, in the sense it is all a conceptually constructed dream world, aka imagined.

''Thought'' simply cannot get past the (conceptual dream) because the conceptual dream is all there is, all that is known...to go beyond the known into the unknown unknowable is absurd.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am

Dontaskme wrote: You also state that 'Absolute Truth' can be known directly and cannot be contained within the conceptual understanding of 'direct knowing' as and through the map.
AlexW wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:22 am
Yes, you only know the absolute - always. How could it be otherwise?
Its just the conceptual overlay that we wrap over the absolute that makes it nearly impossible to recognise it.
People believe in there being 3 parts to experience - the knower, the knowing and the known - this is how the map works - but we never actually experience any of these parts.
But you cannot know/experience the Absolute. You are the Absolute...within which is couched the conceptual overlay, the unknowing known.
That's what I mean when I include the map as being the only experience/known...but only as a dream.
Separating the map from the territory holding them as two polar opposites is creating a duality, an experience known.
In truth, the map is the territory, what is a map but the territory. All there is is the territory. For any mental maps to be drawn up there already has to exist the territory else no map can be drawn, the map is drawn out of what already exists, territory and map cannot be separated for there is no boundary there. It's all the same Absolute dreaming it is the map...as KNOWLEDGE KNOWN...upon waking from sleep, is where the distinction between knowing and not-knowing is made...it's the split mind.
Dontaskme wrote:
But then this ''direct knowing'' as and through the map, is contained within the Absolute?
Direct knowing/experience is a defaulting realisation of the mind itself where the mental mind maps drawn are seen as what they are, as fictionally known experiences that come and go...within the dream of separation.
There is no ''direct experience'' of that which does not come and go.. ie: the Absolute...because you are the Absolute...dreaming it is having a direct experience of itself as and through the dream body, the mental map. So even the ''Direct Experience of Being'' is a dream. There is no Direct Experience of anything in deep sleep, or physical death because these ideas are still within the conceptual map.


AlexW wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:22 am
There is no direct knowing through the map.
Any knowing is always as and through the body mind mechanism, the map, albeit an illusion for all ''knowns'' are a dream, and dream characters know nothing because they only exist as imagined things. So even the direct experience of being is a fictional concept. That it appears real is part of the whole trick, but it's a trickless trick. Thoughts may not be real, but they are real in the sense the map is real because the map is the territory, can't separate the two, they are one and the same no thing.

AlexW wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:22 am
Also, the Absolute doesn't do anything - as there is no knower knowing the known, but only absolute, undivided being, all apparent doing is part of the map.
That cannot be separated out from the Absolute.


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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:06 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
But you cannot know/experience the Absolute. You are the Absolute
Knowing and Being are the same to me.
To say "You are the Absolute" is just another concept - its the same as saying "You only know the Absolute" - both are just interpretations and point to same single truth.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
For any mental maps to be drawn up there already has to exist the territory else no map can be drawn, the map is drawn out of what already exists, territory and map cannot be separated for there is no boundary there.
Sure, the "territory has to exist else no map can be drawn" - but what is being drawn up as the map actually doesn't really exist while the territory does exist, and is the only "thing" that exists - it is the absolute itself. The map is not the Absolute (and it is thus also not experienced) as the things/objects that the map refers to don't actually exist - they only arises as stories held together by chains of conceptual thought. Only what actually exists is itself the Absolute and can be known/experienced (not via a process of knowing taking place but via Being it).
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
the map is the territory, can't separate the two
I sure can separate the two.
The territory is real the map is thought up.
The territory is that which is here/now minus all concepts, ideas and beliefs.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
they are one and the same no thing.
The map IS objectivity, it is all things, it is all doing, it is all separation.
The territory IS non-dual, absolute reality - sure, its not a territory consisting of objects, its not a forest full of trees (thats again the map), it is simply what IS here/now (no matter if something objective seems to be happening - like now - or not - like in deep sleep).
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
That cannot be separated out from the Absolute.
Nothing can be separated from the Absolute as only It is - all that appears as separate (e.g. things, objects) are not real in an absolute sense. They are ideas and as such part of the map.

Look, there is something happening right now, there is knowing/being happening - you ARE, you exist, right? - doesn't matter HOW you exists, but you can be pretty sure that you are - you cannot say "I am not" as even to be able to say it you actually have to BE.

Now there are two options:

1) Its all a dream and experiencing/being happens within this dream. This would mean that the dream itself is the territory as well as the map (as you seem to be proposing) and the Absolute is "beyond", still, dead, perfectly empty - but this clashes with the fact that "something" is still here/now, this "dream" is being dreamt, so the absolute is still, somehow, itself this very dream, right? This makes not much sense to me as it leads back to the dream actually again being the absolute and there is no proper boundary between real and thought-up...

2) Its all real and being/knowing is the Absolute. The objectivity/separation that the map draws up is the only dream/illusion and as such doesn't actually exist - every"thing" else is real, is the living Absolute.

How to find out which one is correct (if any)?
You can think your way to the correct answer or you can investigate the ONLY other option you have, your senses.
There is no other way to know anything, its always sensual impressions plus thought that informs you of anything.
Now, when investigating the senses you will find that direct, raw perception doesn't contain any information about separation, objectivity, time or distance - you can find that the senses actually accurately perceive reality in its non-dual form and that only mental processing adds layers of objectivity to what is otherwise absolutely whole.
To me this points into the direction of option 2) Its all real and being/knowing is the Absolute. All objectivity is added via thinking.
You never experience the things/objects thought talks about, but you do experience non-dual reality (via being it) - at all times.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:51 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
But you cannot know/experience the Absolute. You are the Absolute
AlexW wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:06 am
Knowing and Being are the same to me.
To say "You are the Absolute" is just another concept - its the same as saying "You only know the Absolute" - both are just interpretations and point to same single truth.
I agree that any attempt to point to the ineffable is like an arrow trying to point to itself.. So ALL pointings attribute a conceptual interpretation.

As for the INEFFABLE ABSOLUTE - - The View/Territory remains the SAME SINGLE TRUTH however many points of view there appears to be made known (mental maps)

Taking each known point of view back to it's original SOURCE shows there is (No Viewer) there is only the same unknown single VIEW and the many known points of view of one single VIEW.

You cannot know you know you are the Absolute. You cannot directly experience what you already ARE. There simply is no 'you' to know or be or experience, because there is ''no other'' than YOU knowing and being and experiencing.

To know you know you are the Absolute would mean you would have to be outside of who you are which is impossible. The SELF cannot be outside or inside of itself... there is no knowledge / image of SELF - it's indivisible.

The 'direct experience' that is non-dual self-realisation is when the illusion of (other) aka (THING) dissolves back into it's original source when it is SEEN INDIRECTLY by turning inwards to look at what is looking outwards and to see there is no such ''thing'' as Non-duality, because Non-duality is not a ''thing'' ... In other words, when what is looking is looking for what is looking inside of what's being looked at aka the View, there is nothing there but the looking that cannot see it's original face in what it is looking at, for what it's looking at is what's looking.

The map and the territory exist in the same instant, seer and seen are inseparably ONE.

The DREAM is all there is.



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Atla
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Atla » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:58 am

AlexW wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:25 pm
Atla wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:18 am
they project some literal knowing onto the Absolute as a whole, they sort of attribute to it
Well, yes, but if this isn't done there is nothing to say about it at all - which is exactly what is to say about it - nothing.
Problem is that thought/ego is not happy with not-knowing and thus it invents things like the Observer and activities like SEEING and UNDERSTANDING and whatever else...
I think that at the end of the awakening process, returning to the ego and once again attributing "knowing" / "seeing" / "understanding" to the ego or the human, is the best solution for most people. Even re-adopting separation is a good idea.

Because after all, for most practical purposes: ego, knowing, seeing, understanding etc. are brain/mind functions and thought patterns in the head. They are mostly psychological.

Attributing things to the Absolute may be necessary during the awakening process, but such things are like the raft that carries you across the river, you no longer carry the raft around once you made it to the other shore.

------------

I suspect that 4000-5000 years ago, this was understood by the Indus-Valley civilization. It's remarkable how the first major philosophical system of humanity might have been the most accurate one as well, and then we kept regressing from there, especially in the West.

Eventually we completely lost touch with our true nature in the West, maybe that's what the "fall of man" partially refers to? Back then (2000-3000 years ago) they still may have felt very much that they have lost, have forgotten something very important, but could no longer tell what it was. They had to guess and they mixed in some God fellow.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Ramu » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:11 pm

Throughout time true spirituality was corrupted by ego and became religion via dogma. Mankind as a whole has understood what Consciousness is for the past 5000 years. You are correct in saying that mankind is regressing. Prestigious colleges and universities still have no idea of what Consciousness is!! It's not an epiphenomenon of brain, yet neuroscience claims it is.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Wed May 01, 2019 6:11 am

Ramu wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:11 pm
Prestigious colleges and universities still have no idea of what Consciousness is!! It's not an epiphenomenon of brain, yet neuroscience claims it is.
Yes, true - I think this is the case because people believe that: thought = consciousness
Even though it is quite easy to see that thought arises "in" consciousness and that consciousness is not dependent on thinking (one doesn't have to know/think that one exists to actually Be)

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am
the map is the territory, can't separate the two
AlexW wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:06 am
I sure can separate the two.
The territory is real the map is thought up.
The territory is that which is here/now minus all concepts, ideas and beliefs.
No you cannot separate the two because that which is apparently doing the separating doesn't exist except as a concept.
So if you want to say you can separate the two.. then all you are doing is forming a belief about there existing a duality..this again is all dreamscape.
There is nothing there separating anything. You cannot tell yourself anything about yourself or what is real or unreal without the imaginary belief you can, within the dream of separation. Knowledge of real or unreality is simply knowledge which informs the illusion is real but only because knowledge says so, what is knowledge but conceptual language.
What is ANY CONCEPT without the knowledge of the word informing itself? And yet reality has no thing to say about itself, it has no direct knowledge or experience or image of itself. It's simply self-illuminating without a concept. Knowledge is an illusion, there is no known reality, nor is there anything known that is real or unreal..''known's'' are within the realm of belief aka mental activity, dreamscape.
Without words, without the knife of duality,(the mental construct) there's neither reality, nor unreality...real or unreal , absolute or relative.


AlexW wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:06 am
1) Its all a dream and experiencing/being happens within this dream. This would mean that the dream itself is the territory as well as the map (as you seem to be proposing) and the Absolute is "beyond", still, dead, perfectly empty - but this clashes with the fact that "something" is still here/now, this "dream" is being dreamt, so the absolute is still, somehow, itself this very dream, right? This makes not much sense to me as it leads back to the dream actually again being the absolute and there is no proper boundary between real and thought-up...

2) Its all real and being/knowing is the Absolute. The objectivity/separation that the map draws up is the only dream/illusion and as such doesn't actually exist - every"thing" else is real, is the living Absolute.

How to find out which one is correct (if any)?
You can think your way to the correct answer or you can investigate the ONLY other option you have, your senses.
There is no other way to know anything, its always sensual impressions plus thought that informs you of anything.
Now, when investigating the senses you will find that direct, raw perception doesn't contain any information about separation, objectivity, time or distance - you can find that the senses actually accurately perceive reality in its non-dual form and that only mental processing adds layers of objectivity to what is otherwise absolutely whole.
To me this points into the direction of option 2) Its all real and being/knowing is the Absolute. All objectivity is added via thinking.
You never experience the things/objects thought talks about, but you do experience non-dual reality (via being it) - at all times.
Of course there is no if's or but's about any correct or incorrect way of expressing this.

I'm just wanting to point out that there is no correct or incorrect way that nonduality can be understood by putting it into words because it's all irrelevant to what is basically this ineffable unknown mystery...meaning that whatever curtain does open up within the mind will be right back in the dream of separation again unavoidably...so there really is no ''direct experience'' of ''pure absolute being'' not even by saying that you can BE IT.. because there is no being being being. That's all I'm pointing out. There is no being being being except in this conception. The conception is the dream and the dream is all there is..all that can be known.

In the same context... as awareness you cannot directly enter the world of the Mario video game character and experience being that character. But you can live as and through that world as the Mario character. The character is being used as the interface...between the absolute and the relative world. You become the character while also remaining distinct from the character. The character can die but you do not die because you don't exist except as an imagined character within your dream world. There is no distinction between the awareness and the object it is aware of for they are ONE...and one thing cannot exist, except as imagined...so what you call real is actually unreal and vice versa, cannot separate the two, they are one not two.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Wed May 01, 2019 10:52 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am
I'm just wanting to point out that there is no correct or incorrect way that nonduality can be understood by putting it into words because it's all irrelevant to what is basically this ineffable unknown mystery
Sure, agree, there is no one right way of describing It - simply because It is not a thing and language/thought defines objects, not the infinite.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am
So you cannot separate the two because that which is apparently doing the separating doesn't exist except as a concept.
So if you want to say you can separate the two.. then all you are doing is forming a belief about there existing a duality..this again is all dreamscape.
The two can be "separated", simply because one is Reality itself and the other one is non existent in the first place.
The two are thus never being separated (and thus no one is doing any separating), it is simply a recognition that Reality IS/exists whereas the things/objects the map defines do NOT.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am
Knowledge of real or unreality is simply knowledge which informs the illusion is real but only because knowledge says so, what is knowledge but conceptual language.
Yes, but Reality/This is BEFORE knowledge/understanding is formed. Reality IS - thought is part of this undivided reality but the map it seems to conjure up is not (and the map includes all things, objects, processes, separate entities etc etc)
Just because you cannot talk about/define Reality it doesnt mean that it is a dream - the dream is what thought makes of the map, the ideas and beliefs that arise about reality, nothing more.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am
Without words, without the knife of duality,(the mental construct) there's neither reality, nor unreality...real or unreal , absolute or relative.
Sure - but you still ARE, even without words and concepts - Reality simply IS, no matter if there arises a dream of separation.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am
There is no being being being except in this conception. The conception is the dream and the dream is all there is..all that can be known.
Depends how you define "knowing" - I agree you cannot understand Reality but no matter if understanding seems to happen or not, Reality simply IS - its actually all that ever is and thus all you can be (and directly know/experience via being It - see: being is not a process, it is what Reality is)
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am
There is no distinction between the awareness and the object it is aware of for they are ONE...and one thing cannot exist, except as imagined...so what you call real is actually unreal and vice versa, cannot separate the two, they are one not two.
But I don't call any object/thing real - I only call Reality real - if its not real what else is it?
Sure "real" is only a word, but imagine its a word that has no opposite - like infinity - if infinity IS then it automatically negates everything else - it negates all thingness, all separation - the limited/separate can not exist if infinity IS.
This doesn't mean that experience is a dream - it means that experience, this moment, here/now is infinity itself (and only the ideas we have about infinity, eg that it consists of separate things, is the dream - and as the dream appears to be finite it cannot be real)

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed May 01, 2019 12:14 pm

AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:52 am
But I don't call any object/thing real - I only call Reality real - if its not real what else is it?
Nothingness.

Nothingness has no opposite, not real or unreal.

You can only become conscious of YOU ARE NOT ...NOT YOU ARE.

AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:52 am
Sure "real" is only a word, but imagine its a word that has no opposite - like infinity - if infinity IS then it automatically negates everything else - it negates all thingness, all separation - the limited/separate can not exist if infinity IS.
This is knowledge, which informs the illusion of reality being real or unreal.

There's no such thing as infinity, absolute, relative, being or what ever word you want to use...except in this conception, the dream of separation. The dream is all there is.

AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:52 am
This doesn't mean that experience is a dream - it means that experience, this moment, here/now is infinity itself (and only the ideas we have about infinity, eg that it consists of separate things, is the dream - and as the dream appears to be finite it cannot be real)
There is nothing outside of the dream.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Wed May 01, 2019 12:57 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:14 pm
There is nothing outside of the dream.
This is the same as saying “There is nothing outside reality”
You are only calling reality a dream... why?

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm

AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:57 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:14 pm
There is nothing outside of the dream.
This is the same as saying “There is nothing outside reality”
You are only calling reality a dream... why?
Alright, I'll just change one illusion for another and say there is nothing outside of knowledge aka language.

There is no reality except in this conception...the conceptual dream.

A dream is a dream there is no reality in a dream.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm
Alright, I'll just change one illusion for another and say there is nothing outside of knowledge aka language.
I would agree if you said "there is no thing" outside of knowledge aka language, but "something" (not a thing) IS.
There was "something" there (even this something was not a thing) when you were a baby, before you had any knowledge, before you knew about language, right?
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm
There is no reality except in this conception...the conceptual dream.
Sure, there is no such thing as reality (as reality is not a thing), but it is not nothing (at least not in the way I would define "nothing") - and I agree, we can call the world that conceptual thought seems to create a dream - but there is more than just this dream world.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm
A dream is a dream there is no reality in a dream.
Agree - but dreams arise in reality aka consciousness.
The thoughts that spin the dream are also reality/consciousness but the story these thoughts seem to create are not. This is the only dream there is - the stories (incl. all separation and objectivity etc) that arise out of chains of thought.

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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri May 03, 2019 12:07 pm

AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm
Alright, I'll just change one illusion for another and say there is nothing outside of knowledge aka language.
I would agree if you said "there is no thing" outside of knowledge aka language, but "something" (not a thing) IS.
There was "something" there (even this something was not a thing) when you were a baby, before you had any knowledge, before you knew about language, right?
Right, I agree so far. You have no sense or awareness of yourself as existing when you are a baby in the womb.

That stateless state has to be the ''Nothingness'' that is ''Absolute Knowing''...in that life is living itself and functioning automatically without knowing or being self aware that it is functioning at all.
In the same context a tree is alive but it has no awareness, no knowledge it is alive or functioning as a tree.

That's what I think ''Pure Awareness'' is, it's just another name for ''Nothingness'' it's just life without an image or concept about itself.
And so this whole idea of being born and dying is just an illusory concept, in truth, there is no such reality as being born or of dying.

But you just try and tell that to someone and they'd think you are insane, they'll say of course you are born and you die.
But in reality, you have never been born. People know this is true deep down, but they choose to live in the fantasy that is conceptual story.

For me personally, I've seen through that illusion of birth and death to be just appearances like dreams, like leaves on a tree, they appear and disappear and reappear...it's all appearances and that's all that can be known, experienced. There is nothing outside of appearances. Where do appearances come from, where do they go? that's the only one question...appearances come from NOWHERE NOW HERE...they go NOWHERE NOW HERE...and the answer is identical to the question... the only one question to all our answers.

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm
There is no reality except in this conception...the conceptual dream.
AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 pm
Sure, there is no such thing as reality (as reality is not a thing), but it is not nothing (at least not in the way I would define "nothing") - and I agree, we can call the world that conceptual thought seems to create a dream - but there is more than just this dream world.
But it is Nothingness and yet how can nothingness be an experience, how can nothingness be known? It can't because even the word Nothingness is a concept, and we both know that there is no actual reality or substance in a concept...and that is why I say only the dream is real, there is only the dream, but even the nothingness that is a dream is conceptualised into reality and unreality, we cannot get past the arena that is duality, we cannot touch nonduality because there is no such reality... because it's boundless and infinite in all directions...it can't be reached, no more than life can undo itself. Only life is the experience, there is no experience of non-life.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:01 pm
A dream is a dream there is no reality in a dream.
AlexW wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 pm
Agree - but dreams arise in reality aka consciousness.
The thoughts that spin the dream are also reality/consciousness but the story these thoughts seem to create are not. This is the only dream there is - the stories (incl. all separation and objectivity etc) that arise out of chains of thought.
Consciousness is the dream.

Reality is the dream, there is nothing MORE outside of that arena.

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