Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pm
Age wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:20 am No, not in those words. But speech, either through sound or written, comes from 'thought'.
What tells you that?
Thought
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmJust another thought, right?
Yes.
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmIf someone punches you - does the "Ouch" plus potential swear word come from thought?
The pain comes from the physical body. The human body feels things physically.

The "ouch" is a word already grasped and retained as thought. Whatever word use ("ouch" or any other word, swear word or not) comes from a 'thought'.
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmIf you see a beautiful sunset and you say "How wonderful!" without thinking about it, does it come from thought? (you can talk without previously thinking about it - right?)
I doubt it.

Just because the "you" does NOT recognize and/or see the thought (the thinking) BEFORE the spoken word, that in no way infers that spoken words do NOT come from thought. In the times of when this is written human beings are really mostly "unconscious" (for lack of a better word) of thought, and of the actual power thought has. What people say has far more power over them then they actually realize YET.

The actual language used to describe any thing, for example like a "beautiful" "sunset", had to come from thought. Words like "beautiful" and/or "sunset" do NOT just pop out of the mouth, without first previously being a thought. The saying "How wonderful" has to be there as a thought before it can just come out in spoken, or written, words. Whatever is SAID does NOT appear without first coming from a thought. For example, when the words "How wonderful!" are said the actual thought behind those words, which HAD TO be there BEFORE those two words were spoken WERE "beautiful sunset". WHEN a sunset is seen that is liked and THOUGHT of a being a beautiful one, then the THOUGHT "beautiful sunset" unconsciously arises, in a completely unnoticed amount of time, BEFORE the words "How wonderful!" are muttered.

Even in YOUR example "you" have provided the actual EVIDENCE that A THOUGHT was THERE BEFORE 'the words are said. That "person" was THINKING "beautiful sunset" BEFORE saying "How wonderful!" OBVIOUSLY they would NOT have said "How wonderful!" IF they HAD NOT had a thought of "beautiful sunset" FIRST.

Unless OF COURSE "you" can show HOW otherwise.

What you are leading to goes to deeper level of understanding, and of recognizing the difference between 'behaviors' and 'actions'. But this is a bit off track and to deep for this discussion, for now.
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmIsn't it much rather the case that words are spoken spontaneously and thought is coming up after the fact claiming ownership of what actually doesn't belong to it at all?
But HOW could words be spoken if they have NOT yet been obtained and withheld as 'thought' first?

There are two things here:
1. Obviously to be able to speak the words/language one uses, those words/language HAD TO BE previously obtained. When this happens those words/language is stored within the body, and are known as thought. Therefore, words may APPEAR to be spoken spontaneously but OBVIOUSLY they came from thought. ALL words are held as a thought before they are spoken, unless of course they are a made up word, which, by the way, only human beings make up human made up words and language, OBVIOUSLY.
2. If spoken words to "you" APPEAR to be "spontaneously", then WHERE do you propose they come from IF they do NOT come from thought?

Maybe if you provide an example or two of WHEN words APPEAR to be "spoken spontaneously", then we can look at it/them, and then discuss.

The example you gave above, from my perspective, APPEARED to work against what you are proposing.
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pm
Age wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:20 am To "you", do sounds come out of a human body? From and through the larynx or voice box are sounds muttered? Are those sounds some times known as a voice? Is a 'voice' another term of expressing what 'thoughts' are in that body? If yes to these questions, then I also say yes to; A human body is able to utter sounds.
Yes, when speaking from the perspective of the small, conditioned self.
No, when speaking from the perspective of consciousness - here/now everything is I - there is no separate one doing anything.
I am NOT sure why "you" the small, conditioned self, which THINKS that it is a separate self, is saying this.

What are "you" TRYING TO get at?

If there is NO actual separate one doing anything, then WHY are ALL of these apparent separate writings, with completely opposing views, coming from apparent separate ones? Are "you" able to explain WHAT is actually occurring here/now, and HOW this phenomena actually happens?
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmYou have to decide which perspective you are actually addressing me from - mixing them up is a recipe for misunderstanding.
I could NOT disagree any more.

WHY do "you" propose that the collective and united I, also sometimes referred to as, Consciousness is NOT able to speak through human beings' voice boxes?

Also, do you want answers written under the label "age" to also be clarified how "you" have done it here, all of the time?

Also, WHO/WHAT came to the realization to write what was written in "YOUR" quote here? And, did it only come to the forefront AFTER the 'thought' which produced the quote above it WHERE the writings under the label "alexw" gave two different answers from two different perspectives.

If "you" want to KNOW which perspective is actually addressing "you" from, then do "you" also have to decide which perspective "you" are actually addressing the "me" from ALSO?

And, who/what is the "me" anyway? Which perspective is the "me" which "you" are going to decide which perspective "you" will address from?

'I' can SEE a true recipe for misunderstanding occurring HERE/NOW.

Surely there is ONE VERY SIMPLE and EASY way ALL of this could be EXPLAINED and UNDERSTOOD?
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pm
Age wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:20 am But the human made up label placed on to a human self is NOT Consciousness nor capital letter S Self, from my perspective.
Ultimately everything is consciousness, all labels/thoughts included, no matter if they appear deluded or not.
Okay, fair point.

Can "you", whichever that one who is going to address this question is, EXPLAIN HOW and WHY just One thing WOULD cause things to HAPPEN and APPEAR the way they are HERE/NOW?

Also, did "you" NOTICE any contradiction in "your" own statement just now?

If everything IS Consciousness, (including ALL labels/thoughts), then there is NO delusion any where. Thoughts/labels do NOT "appear" deluded. In some circumstances "they" just ARE. But the reason "they" and "you" ARE deluded is because "you" actually THINK and BELIEVE that "you" are separate human beings. When "you" human beings STOP being "egos" and transform beyond what those PERCEIVED things ARE, and become thee True Self, then the REASON for HOW and WHY Everything/the Universe IS the way It IS will be KNOWN, to "you" also.
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmAlso, the label is ultimately not "made up by humans".
If "you" want to stick with the 'ultimately', then great. Lets do it.
AlexW wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:41 pmAbsolutely speaking: Can "humans" do anything? Can anything?
WHY did I, and HOW do I, which ultimately does do EVERY thing, create the PERCEPTION of "human beings" and the PERCEPTION of them being able to do things?

When "you" can and do answer that accurately, then I KNOW "we" are on the same path.

IF absolutely EVERY thing, as "you" propose is done by Consciousness, It-Self, and "you" can speak for Consciousness, and "you", as Consciousness, say that sounds do NOT come out of human bodies, nor from the voice boxes of human bodies sounds are muttered, nor that those sounds, heard by human beings, are known as a "voice", by human beings, then what do "you/Consciousness" propose is doing ALL these things HERE/NOW, which are observed by, and witnessed by, "you" human beings?

When that question is answered, then how I do things HERE/NOW will be SEEN to be different, by "you" human beings.

Also, which perspective do "you" want to actually be addressed from? And, how often?

'I' can be WHOEVER, "you" want "me" TO BE.
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:34 am
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:32 am
Logik wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:09 pm
Yes you do :)
Do I?

What EVIDENCE do you have for this BELIEF of YOURS?

And. 'WHAT' EXACTLY do you BELIEVE I believe?
Logik wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:09 pm I don't give a shit if you say it.
And I do NOT care if you do, or do NOT.
Logik wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:09 pm I am trying to get you to acknowledge it.
Acknowledge 'WHAT' EXACTLY?
Logik wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:09 pmStop lying to yourself.
WHERE is the supposed "lie"?

WHAT EXACTLY is the supposed "lie"?

What am I supposedly "lying" about?

Who/what EXACTLY is the 'your' in 'yourself', AND, who/what EXACTLY is the 'self' in 'yourself'?

Examples are NEEDED.

YOUR word alone does NOT prove any thing.
Triggered!

My words alone are mere interpretation of the evidence which you keep providing.
So, if the interpretation is that there is NO evidence, then what is that?
Logik
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik »

Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:08 pm So, if the interpretation is that there is NO evidence, then what is that?
Then I will kick you in the testicles and ask you to interpret it in a way that there is no evidence for pain.
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:11 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:08 pm So, if the interpretation is that there is NO evidence, then what is that?
Then I will kick you in the testicles and ask you to interpret it in a way that there is no evidence for pain.
I did NOT ask what the one labeled "logik" WANTS to do, I asked 'what' is 'that' IF the interpretation is that there is NO evidence?
Logik
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik »

Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:35 pm I did NOT ask what the one labeled "logik" WANTS to do, I asked 'what' is 'that' IF the interpretation is that there is NO evidence?
I already explained it to you.

All interpretation rests on CHOICE. Some axiomatic assumption. Some undeniable 'truth'

So when I kick you in the balls, you are welcome to interpret it in a way that it doesn't mean "FUCK THIS HURTS!"

CHOOSE to not feel pain.
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:07 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:35 pm I did NOT ask what the one labeled "logik" WANTS to do, I asked 'what' is 'that' IF the interpretation is that there is NO evidence?
I already explained it to you.

All interpretation rests on CHOICE. Some axiomatic assumption. Some undeniable 'truth'

So when I kick you in the balls, you are welcome to interpret it in a way that it doesn't mean "FUCK THIS HURTS!"

CHOOSE to not feel pain.
So, if "you" CHOOSE to BELIEVE, say for example that murder is wrong, and in doing so "you" are NOT open to anything other than that, then are "you" saying that that interpretation rests on CHOICE also?

If yes, then WHY make such a CLOSED CHOICE?
If no, then WHAT are you TRYING TO say?
Logik
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik »

Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:27 pm So, if "you" CHOOSE to BELIEVE, say for example that murder is wrong, and in doing so "you" are NOT open to anything other than that, then are "you" saying that that interpretation rests on CHOICE also?

If yes, then WHY make such a CLOSED CHOICE?
If no, then WHAT are you TRYING TO say?
I don't BELIEVE that murder is wrong. I KNOW murder is wrong

I asked if you KNOW that murder is wrong.

You said you don't have beliefs ;)
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:34 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:27 pm So, if "you" CHOOSE to BELIEVE, say for example that murder is wrong, and in doing so "you" are NOT open to anything other than that, then are "you" saying that that interpretation rests on CHOICE also?

If yes, then WHY make such a CLOSED CHOICE?
If no, then WHAT are you TRYING TO say?
I don't BELIEVE that murder is wrong. I KNOW murder is wrong

I asked if you KNOW that murder is wrong.

You said you don't have beliefs ;)
Can "you" point the readers to WHERE this supposedly, or actually, occurred?

If "you" do NOT, then what could they infer?
Logik
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik »

Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:47 pm
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:34 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:27 pm So, if "you" CHOOSE to BELIEVE, say for example that murder is wrong, and in doing so "you" are NOT open to anything other than that, then are "you" saying that that interpretation rests on CHOICE also?

If yes, then WHY make such a CLOSED CHOICE?
If no, then WHAT are you TRYING TO say?
I don't BELIEVE that murder is wrong. I KNOW murder is wrong

I asked if you KNOW that murder is wrong.

You said you don't have beliefs ;)
Can "you" point the readers to WHERE this supposedly, or actually, occurred?

If "you" do NOT, then what could they infer?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26289
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:51 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:47 pm
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:34 pm
I don't BELIEVE that murder is wrong. I KNOW murder is wrong

I asked if you KNOW that murder is wrong.

You said you don't have beliefs ;)
Can "you" point the readers to WHERE this supposedly, or actually, occurred?

If "you" do NOT, then what could they infer?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26289
Is there even a single word written under the label "age" there?

I could NOT see any.
Logik
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik »

Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:57 pm
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:51 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:47 pm

Can "you" point the readers to WHERE this supposedly, or actually, occurred?

If "you" do NOT, then what could they infer?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26289
Is there even a single word written under the label "age" there?

I could NOT see any.
What are you on about?

I am TELLING you what I KNOW.

I KNOW that murder is ALWAYS wrong. With 100% certainty and all that.

You said you don't have beliefs. So I am asking YOU if you also KNOW that murder is ALWAYS wrong.

Do you KNOW that murder is wrong, or do you BELIEVE that it isn't?

Here is evidence of your belief:
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:48 am But murder is NOT wrong, sometimes, OBVIOUSLY. By agreement.
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:57 pm
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:51 pm
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26289
Is there even a single word written under the label "age" there?

I could NOT see any.
What are you on about?
What I am on about IS:
You said: I don't BELIEVE that murder is wrong. I KNOW murder is wrong. I asked if you KNOW that murder is wrong. You said you don't have beliefs ;)

I then said: Can "you" point the readers to WHERE this supposedly, or actually, occurred? If "you" do NOT, then what could they infer?

Besides the fact that you did NOT answer the actual question, you actually pointed the readers to some topic that I have NOT even written a word in. So, how you could have asked me if I KNOW that murder is wrong AND me then saying that I do not have beliefs, in A topic that I have NOT spoken to you in, just bewilders me.

That is WHY I asked you a clarifying question about if I had written anything in that topic or not, which YOU had linked the readers to, AND I informed you that I could NOT see any thing there.

Truthfully I was hoping you would finally SHOW me WHERE I have been WRONG. But still not yet.

That is WHAT I am on about.

I am TELLING you what I KNOW.
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pmI KNOW that murder is ALWAYS wrong. With 100% certainty and all that.
So, "you" "logik" KNOW something with 100% certainty, yet when I question about how sure you are of what you say and how certain you are, you have continually referred back to that you are never certain of anything and that you are never absolutely right and that you are always wrong and want to be less wrong, yet you continually contradict this with your own words. Like above.

By the way my point I make when I say that while you BELIEVE that murder is ALWAYS wrong, you are proving by SHOWING that you are NOT open at all, would be becoming more and more obvious to the readers now. You are SHOWING exactly how the brain, via the belief-system, works.
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pmYou said you don't have beliefs. So I am asking YOU if you also KNOW that murder is ALWAYS wrong.
But WHY would you ask such a thing when I have clearly stated that murder is sometimes good and necessary. Can you NOT distinguish between how good and necessary is NOT WRONG?

I KNOW murder is sometimes the right thing to do and sometimes the wrong thing to do. This is all depended upon the observer. As EVERY thing IS relative to the observer.
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pmDo you KNOW that murder is wrong, or do you BELIEVE that it isn't?
Once again, I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing.

I KNOW that murder is wrong sometimes and murder is right sometimes, just as I have ALREADY explained WHY. If you MISSED this explanation, then just let me KNOW and I will point you, and the readers, back to WHERE that IS.
Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pmHere is evidence of your belief:
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:48 am But murder is NOT wrong, sometimes, OBVIOUSLY. By agreement.
But that is NOT evidence of my belief because;
1. I do NOT have any beliefs.
2. Just stating a view is NOT stating a belief.

A 'view' and a 'belief' are very distinct different things. Just like ALL words ARE.

That is a view, from within this body. I have also explained WHY that view is sound and valid.

If you have SEEN this view, and either disagree with it, or find it unsound and/or invalid, then just express WHY. Until then just stating that 'my view' is 'my belief' is just YOUR BELIEF only.

Maybe answering this question will help you in your confusion; Are you aware that one can have a VIEW without BELIEVING the view to be true?

By the way I wrote: "By agreement" at the end because that is what YOU did also.

You were TRYING TO argue that 'murder is always wrong', by agreement. I SHOWED how 'murder is NOT always wrong', also, by agreement.
Logik
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik »

Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:52 pm Besides the fact that you did NOT answer the actual question, you actually pointed the readers to some topic that I have NOT even written a word in.
Don't LIE!!!!
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:48 am But murder is NOT wrong, sometimes, OBVIOUSLY. By agreement.
Age
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Age »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:52 pm Besides the fact that you did NOT answer the actual question, you actually pointed the readers to some topic that I have NOT even written a word in.
Don't LIE!!!!
Age wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:48 am But murder is NOT wrong, sometimes, OBVIOUSLY. By agreement.
The EVIDENCE is in our writings above, for ALL to LOOK AT and SEE.

The EVIDENCE will speak for Itself.
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Lacewing
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Lacewing »

Logik wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:39 am
Greta wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:14 am The question then comes from the OP, what might prompt people to be reluctant to give up their shields?
Fear of the unknown is the No.1 reason as far as I can tell.
The 2nd reason is diminishing returns - it's too much effort to change.

Combine those into fear of change and it's just another extinction vector.
Yes! We humans surely do seem to love what we think of as "known". And patterns! We adopt them, indoctrinate others, and then seem to worship those patterns... sometimes to the point that anything ELSE is "wrong" or even "evil". Even when the patterns are painful and stagnant.

I think of egos as wanting to be "right" and/or to control. So the unknown or alternatives are not usually welcome or explored. Which, of course, is very limited. Operating from ego can feel more powerful than the vulnerability of facing fear and the unknown... but it surely seems more of a weakness because it is dependent, and needs to be fed. Oh, and it blindly caters to itself. :)
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