AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 am
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:05 am
There really is NO use in me "investigating", and getting it WRONG, when you can just TELL me directly, (through 'direct experience', maybe?) what the actual and real True ANSWER IS.
I don't agree. I think that investigating and finding your own answer is important. It is important to investigate until all doubt has been eradicated that your answer could actually be wrong. I found that this doubt will be there until you actually reach the conceptual border and „understand“ what exists at the "other side".
So, is what actually and really exists, at what you call, the "other side", FULLY understand, by you, yet?
You do, after all, only appear to be re-repeating what has been told/taught to you by "others".
Also, do you really not agree that while investigating and if you are "stuck", then just asking "others" clarifying questions could NOT help you?
When, and IF, let us say, you give YOUR answers, then I can KEEP investigating. But if you NEVER gave me YOUR answers, then I may NEVER find them my self, while investigating with only what I have? Obviously the past experiences that I have had may NOT enlighten me to what you have had, which has SHOWN you things that "others" would NOT have and thus do NOT yet KNOW about.
I agree that OBTAINING answers that are, in a sense, YOUR OWN ANSWER is VERY important. But if one is stuck or can NOT LOOK further, then with help and support from "others" more and new answers can be given, brought to light, and/or obtained, thus speeding the process up of discovery, learning, and understanding more much faster than otherwise could be gained. Just to be clear, obviously just because "another" gives THEIR OWN ANSWERS this does NOT mean that "that answer" will be accepted and/or agreed upon by "others". That "answer" might NOT fit in with ONE'S OWN ANSWER at all, and this is WHY investigating is best NOT ever finished. But SHARING views/answers surely helps ALL to be at least able to LOOK AT MORE things MORE thoroughly, providing a much BIGGER picture, and thus then able to find their OWN ANSWERS, much simpler and easier. This may NOT be from your perspective, but this is from my perspective, anyway.
By the way it is THOSE OWN ANSWERS, which are IN AGREEMENT and ACCEPTED with and by ALL, which is what I say will lead to KNOWING the actual and real Truth of things.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:05 am
WHY is you seeing simply COLOR 'direct experience', but when "another" is seeing simply MATTER NOT 'direct experience'?
I didn't say that seeing color IS direct experience - I said that, for me, color is the conceptual border from where I cannot find another concept to describe what the direct experience of seeing actually is.
Okay, fair enough. But I like to use language to describe what the actual 'direct experience' of SEEING, actually is.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amThat's why I said, that if your conceptual border is "Particles of matter positioned in a particular way, with space around them" that this is fine too - fine and ok as long as you understand that the the conceptual label will never be the direct experience itself.
You did eventually say that what I said "is fine", but only after you first said: "That's pure thought story - not direct experience." and after I pointed out that why what you said was NOT "pure thought story, and not direct experience" as well.
If you are wanting to talk about and discuss 'direct experience', then "we" can do that if "you" like. But before you did ask me what i see when I look at a cup on a desk. What is seen by and through the physical human eyes is NOT
what IS SEEN by and through the Mind's, so called, EYE.
If 'direct experience' wants to be discussed, then lets not bother with the superficial and shallow perspective of what is experienced through any or all of the five senses of the human body, and lets move straight to discussing 'direct experience' instead.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:05 am
Some might say that that is just pure thought story - not direct experience. But anyway, so you have cleared up that you did NOT find any thing - you realized some thing instead.
Of course. Everything we say is pure thought story, not direct experience.
Okay so now instead of just writing:
That's pure thought story - not direct experience. to some of the things I write, from your experience, EVERY thing written or said is put thought story, not direct experience. Does this apply to absolutely EVERY thing written and said?
If yes, then the issue you will NOW have is you will NEVER be able to KNOW 'what' 'direct experience' IS with and through language.
If no, then 'what' could be said that IS, in fact, 'direct experience'?
This reason you will NEVER know what 'direct experience' is through words because you have just told your self that EVERY word is pure thought story, not direct experience. So, while this BELIEF is held, within that body, there is NO way at all, to you anyway, that 'direct experience' can be understood nor explained with and through language.
Although 'direct experience' to me can be VERY EASILY and SIMPLY explained, with simple and easy to understand language. It can NOT, to you, correct?
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amAge wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:05 am
when you say when investigating the other senses I WILL FIND that it is the same for all of them, what exactly do you mean? WILL I FIND that I see simply COLOR through and from the other four senses also?
I find your tendency to pick apart every sentence a bit tiring -
If you want to speak like you KNOW what you are talking about, then I find being consistent and very thorough works better.
Also, I do NOT necessarily "pick apart every sentence" I just express what pops out and what I SEE in what is written, this tends to happen almost immediately, some times. This pointing out inconsistencies, wrongs, et cetera, after all, is what I WISH would be done with my writings, and so I have a general tendency to want to do the same back.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amyou leave no room for creative expression.
If so called 'creative expression' works to explain things in a simple and easy way, without things getting misconstrued, misinterpreted, misunderstood, and/or taken out of context, then please use 'creative expression', as much as you want. If, however, these things occur in so called 'creative expression', then I, obviously, find that that kind of expression is NOT really doing a good job of expressing 'that', which is actually Real and True.
Unambiguous facts, which can NOT be refuted, is what I am LOOKING FOR, because this is what I want to also express.
The reason I ask for people to POINT OUT and SHOW me the WRONG in my writings is so that I can USE their VIEWS to make my VIEWS more accurate, and thus better. When I say that I am here, in this forum, to learn HOW to communicate better. I am doing this to USE people to make thy Self LOOK BETTER. (Maybe this was NOT fully understood before.) HOW I LOOK better is through BETTER 'creative' writings. I came to a philosophy forum because I was expecting/thinking if any one is going to find FAULT in writings, then it would be those ones who call themselves, "philosophers".
Probably the biggest reason WHY human beings are still confused about things is DIRECTLY because of the actual language they use with the very many different definitions and meanings, which apply to those words. What is said can all to quickly and easily get misinterpreted and taken out of context, for example, what i just wrote above may have NOT been fully understood yet. Although I have NOT changed the actual words that I have previously written.
Another example of just how quick writings can be misinterpreted and taken out of context is, if I was to say to you:
"Do you want to argue about this?" Then what did I actually mean? A hint I could have meant two very distinctly different and very OPPOSITE things.
Also, there is ONLY ONE WAY of you FULLY UNDERSTANDING, and thus KNOWING, what I actually meant.
The fact is words can so to easily and quickly get misinterpreted, misunderstood, and mistaken.
Furthermore, words used through language can be so quickly and very easily used to TRY TO justify one's own position, to cover up previously mistakes. For example the words, "you leave no room for "creative" expression", ATTEMPTS to put all of the fault onto the reader/listener for NOT understanding FULLY what the writer/speaker was previously meaning, yet was NOT written clearly itself in the beginning. If just asking clarifying questions, in order to gain a FULL understanding of what it is that is being said, causes some sort of not liked emotion, or an inability to respond with a clarifying answer, then JUST MAYBE some else is going on, within the reader/speaker, which is NOT fully understood by the writer/speaker, YET?
The power of words expressed outwards or even internally is far more powerful then human beings fully realize yet. The power of the words used in internal dialogue has so much power of one's self that this power is yet to be fully recognized.
If what is being said does NOT express an actual and real Truth, and that comes to light with and through clarifying questions, then what was said earlier does NOT all of a sudden become "creative expression" at all, although the 'creative' word might help the writer/speaker to feel a bit better about them self, the actual and real Truth can be very different.
PLEASE be as creative as you want, and can be, and please express anyway that you want to, but just like I WANT to be SHOWN the WRONG in my words I also like to point out the WRONG, which I SEE, in "other's" use of words also. If what is being expressed, creatively or not, is NOT true, then it is NOT true. If you do NOT like what I bring to light and SHOW, then that is NOT going to stop me doing so. The only thing that is going to STOP me would be obvious by now.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 am For me, this is not a contest in grammatical correctness or linguistic skills -
For me, it is NOT also.
For me, this is about finding the right words, through language, which best expresses thee Truth of things.
For me, there is NO contest here at all. But what is here is a working platform where "we" can come together and FIND what the actual Truth IS. This to me is what 'philosophy' is about anyway. If people want to do that in a peaceful and harmonious way, then that is another matter.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amI tend to express things in a certain way, but it seems to me that you have either trouble understanding the meaning behind certain expressions or you ignore the meaning on purpose - either way... its getting a bit tedious.
This ASSUMING that I am NOT understanding the words written nor understanding the meaning behind the words tends to happen a fair bit on here, when people are sharing their views with me. JUST MAYBE I can SEE much more and much deeper than is realized yet. Also people find my way of POINTING things out very tedious and boring, and usually do NOT want to discuss any further.
This might be because I question them far enough or deep enough to a point where they do NOT want to go or can NOT go any further nor deeper. Maybe there are other reasons, we will have to wait and SEE?
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amI hope you know that you wont find COLOR when listening to sounds, or when smelling the flowers... do I really have to clarify this?
Yes I FOUND that out when you said that I would FIND some thing else out. I investigated to make SURE. I do, after all, NOT like to ASSUME any thing at all whatsoever.
AlexW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:16 amAnyway, lets leave it with that - I think I have explained what I mean when talking about direct experience and the conceptual border between direct experience and interpretation.
I think you will find that you have NOT explained any thing at all about 'direct experience' itself, but you did teach me about 'conceptual borders' by SHOWING me a conceptual border. You have also SHOWN me things that I had NOT yet seen before, of which I am thankful. This helps me in learning how to communicate better, what it is that I want to communicate. Communicating 'direct experience', Itself, I am pretty sure you could agree is NOT the most easiest thing to explain to human beings in the age of when this is written.
But discussing 'direct experience' is far more fascinating, exciting, rewarding, and revealing, than just discussing things from the very shallow level of 'physical experiences' and 'conceptual borders' only.
There is so much more and anew to discover, learn, and is REVEALED when wanting to go past this perceived "border" and wanting to go much deeper and discuss things from the most Honest and OPEN, 'direct experience', level. That is, after all, WHERE Truth lays.
But if you want to just leave it, at this level, then that is fine with me also.