Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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onglob
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:15 pm

Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by onglob » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:27 pm

Humans harmful behaviors against their environment and against other humans and species is as archaic as
the advent of modern humans.

As humans settled and human societies emerged, conflicts and damages due to those harmful behaviors
impaired the whole society. so humans devised god or gods and religions to justify moralities to avoid
those harmful behaviors.
But as the history tells us the problem didn't solve, if not deepened and became more complicated as
religious wars, theocracies and religious dogmatism proved to be even more harmful.

So again puzzled humans and philosophers tried to find a way out and harness immoralities in
human societies and put forward new ideas or philosophies as Socialism, Marxism, Communism,
Humanism, Existentialism, . . . . . . .

Now as we are witnessing :
The wide gap between poverty and wealth.
Ethnic, religious, sexual and racial persecutions.
Persistence of despotic regimes.
The new rise of national sense of dominance.
Deterioration of our natural environment.

Can we say the problem is solved or even alleviated?
Simply , as I suppose ,The problem of Human Egoism.
Or perhaps , the instinct of survival as inherited from our brutal origins ?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:39 am

Do you think suppressing the survival instinct is a moral thing to do?

Do you think it is harmful to optimise for survival?

AlexW
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:33 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:39 am
Do you think it is harmful to optimise for survival?
Of course not.
But what humanity is doing to itself as well as the planet shouldn't even be called "survival instinct" - it is simply misguided egoistic action which will actually lead to the opposite of survival.
Furthermore, most of what human kind is doing is not instinctual at all, it is based on egoistic conditioning brought about by thousands of years of misguided thinking.

onglob
Posts: 12
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by onglob » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:36 am

Non of us actually survive .
But the point is that our bodies and our whole life is
just a part , and a tiny part , of our environment, regarding the time and space .
So we should preserve it , as far as we should preserve our environment.

So I presume our final goal should not be the survival of our physical bodies or
even our children , or our own descendants .

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Lacewing
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:26 pm

AlexW wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:33 am
...what humanity is doing to itself as well as the planet shouldn't even be called "survival instinct" - it is simply misguided egoistic action which will actually lead to the opposite of survival.
Furthermore, most of what human kind is doing is not instinctual at all, it is based on egoistic conditioning brought about by thousands of years of misguided thinking.
Well said (and I like this thread :) ). I think that children reflect an untarnished glimpse into the true nature of being human. Such sweetness, trust, and love -- and the desire to explore life. I remember my impressions as a child: nature was awesome and magical, and I was part of it -- while adults seemed oddly vicious and crazy, and intent on controlling and owning everything/everyone. I don't think such adult energy is necessary or even truly natural. It's just one madly intoxicated state, of many possible states of mind. The ego distorts and blinds in its quest to elevate itself and create its own worlds, thereby worshiping its own false idols and going mad with itself.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:10 pm

One day we will have no choice but to just view it as pointless.

Technology is not evil, but it becomes evil when we place it as a solution to all our problems. The modern technological paradigm is strictly pure ego as a way of seeking control over everything.

Once we get all our control we will either not know what to do with it, or self destruct.

Considering the control means we will be unable to figure out what to do with ourselves, things will just erupt into chaos from an inability to empathize due to a state of boredom where we are no longer interested in anything or anyone.

Just look at a kid. When they say "I am bored"...then you know chaos is about to start.

The whole trick to get rid of ego is to pursue quality.

Atla
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Atla » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:21 pm

onglob wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Humans harmful behaviors against their environment and against other humans and species is as archaic as
the advent of modern humans.

As humans settled and human societies emerged, conflicts and damages due to those harmful behaviors
impaired the whole society. so humans devised god or gods and religions to justify moralities to avoid
those harmful behaviors.
But as the history tells us the problem didn't solve, if not deepened and became more complicated as
religious wars, theocracies and religious dogmatism proved to be even more harmful.

So again puzzled humans and philosophers tried to find a way out and harness immoralities in
human societies and put forward new ideas or philosophies as Socialism, Marxism, Communism,
Humanism, Existentialism, . . . . . . .

Now as we are witnessing :
The wide gap between poverty and wealth.
Ethnic, religious, sexual and racial persecutions.
Persistence of despotic regimes.
The new rise of national sense of dominance.
Deterioration of our natural environment.

Can we say the problem is solved or even alleviated?
Simply , as I suppose ,The problem of Human Egoism.
Or perhaps , the instinct of survival as inherited from our brutal origins ?
Humanity's average intelligence is still way too low, so instead of growing up, we will probably wipe ourselves out.

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bahman
Posts: 2451
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by bahman » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:49 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:21 pm
onglob wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Humans harmful behaviors against their environment and against other humans and species is as archaic as
the advent of modern humans.

As humans settled and human societies emerged, conflicts and damages due to those harmful behaviors
impaired the whole society. so humans devised god or gods and religions to justify moralities to avoid
those harmful behaviors.
But as the history tells us the problem didn't solve, if not deepened and became more complicated as
religious wars, theocracies and religious dogmatism proved to be even more harmful.

So again puzzled humans and philosophers tried to find a way out and harness immoralities in
human societies and put forward new ideas or philosophies as Socialism, Marxism, Communism,
Humanism, Existentialism, . . . . . . .

Now as we are witnessing :
The wide gap between poverty and wealth.
Ethnic, religious, sexual and racial persecutions.
Persistence of despotic regimes.
The new rise of national sense of dominance.
Deterioration of our natural environment.

Can we say the problem is solved or even alleviated?
Simply , as I suppose ,The problem of Human Egoism.
Or perhaps , the instinct of survival as inherited from our brutal origins ?
Humanity's average intelligence is still way too low, so instead of growing up, we will probably wipe ourselves out.
Yup.

onglob
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:15 pm

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by onglob » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:44 pm

But I am looking for solution.

Firstly, I would like to know the psychological reason for human egoism .
Is it an indispensable part of our consciousness or our subconscious ?
Why we adhere to an identity ? and denounce those who don't belong
to it ?

Secondly, I would like to know what's wrong with our philosophical
attitude ?
Are we still misguided by the famous Descartes' "Cogito" ?
Can we say "I exist" ?
What's the exact definition of existence ?
And what can be acknowledged to be existing at present ?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:10 pm

Could it be that egoism is what got us to become the dominant species on Earth?
We took responsibility for our well-being in our own hands. We got smart and we met our needs.

We are victims of our own success. The exponential growth of the human population has made it very difficult to meet human needs without having a measurable impact on the environment.

What to do then? Genocide or efficiency?

Sustainability under exponential growth is hard!

AlexW
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:10 pm
Could it be that egoism is what got us to become the dominant species on Earth?
We took responsibility for our well-being in our own hands. We got smart and we met our needs.

We are victims of our own success. The exponential growth of the human population has made it very difficult to meet human needs without having a measurable impact on the environment.

What to do then? Genocide or efficiency?

Sustainability under exponential growth is hard!
“Dominance” is a human invention, nature knows nothing of it. Nature works in a symbiotic way, taking and giving, eating and being eaten.
Becoming dominant means being out of tune with nature, not controlling it.

Also, dominance didn’t further our “well being”, look how depressed and unhappy most people are, all it did was lead to unchecked multiplying, but this will soon change as we not only eradicated our enemies but also our friends (plants, insects, etc etc).

Maybe we should measure "our own success" in units of happiness... that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Sadly, on the happiness scale, human kind might not be dominant, rather the opposite...

AlexW
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by AlexW » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:30 am

onglob wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:44 pm
Can we say "I exist" ?
What's the exact definition of existence ?
And what can be acknowledged to be existing at present ?
Sure you can say "I exist!", but is it true?
And if so, who/what is this "I" that exists?
You can find the answer in what is "existing at present".
So... what is it that exists here and now?

Atla
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:34 am

AlexW wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:10 pm
Could it be that egoism is what got us to become the dominant species on Earth?
We took responsibility for our well-being in our own hands. We got smart and we met our needs.

We are victims of our own success. The exponential growth of the human population has made it very difficult to meet human needs without having a measurable impact on the environment.

What to do then? Genocide or efficiency?

Sustainability under exponential growth is hard!
“Dominance” is a human invention, nature knows nothing of it. Nature works in a symbiotic way, taking and giving, eating and being eaten.
Becoming dominant means being out of tune with nature, not controlling it.

Also, dominance didn’t further our “well being”, look how depressed and unhappy most people are, all it did was lead to unchecked multiplying, but this will soon change as we not only eradicated our enemies but also our friends (plants, insects, etc etc).

Maybe we should measure "our own success" in units of happiness... that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Sadly, on the happiness scale, human kind might not be dominant, rather the opposite...
Almost everything in nature is about dominance, there is no taking and giving. The apparent symbiotic way only happens because otherwise some species become too dominant, then overpopulate, consume all the available resources, and then die out. So an equilibrium is forced onto them.
Last edited by Atla on Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Atla
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:36 am

onglob wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:44 pm
But I am looking for solution.

Firstly, I would like to know the psychological reason for human egoism .
Is it an indispensable part of our consciousness or our subconscious ?
Why we adhere to an identity ? and denounce those who don't belong
to it ?

Secondly, I would like to know what's wrong with our philosophical
attitude ?
Are we still misguided by the famous Descartes' "Cogito" ?
Can we say "I exist" ?
What's the exact definition of existence ?
And what can be acknowledged to be existing at present ?
There is no solution, we will probably all die, people just haven't realized this yet. The problem isn't even particularly with the ego as you use the word, the problem is that we are living in a shitty universe, and life on this planet has been 4 billion years of carnage, kill or be killed, an eternal fight for resources and territory. Humans too are hardly more than primitive, selfish animals, survival machines because of that, it's wired into us on all levels.

(The Western "I" is illusory, realizing this is a necessary step but not enough by itself.)

I can only think of three scenarios where we won't nuke this planet into oblivion sooner or later:
- there is some God after all and saves us from ourselves using Magic (I don't think this is gonna happen)
- some extraterrestrial species saves us from ourselves (I don't think this is gonna happen either)
- we gene engineer a way more intelligent/peaceful/compassionate etc. human species, that can live on Earth (this one looks most promising, but I don't think this is gonna happen in time either, and as we get better at gene engineering, we also get better at wiping out humanity with artificial pandemics)

Or maybe some other unexpected thing will happen in the future.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:12 am

AlexW wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 pm
“Dominance” is a human invention, nature knows nothing of it. Nature works in a symbiotic way, taking and giving, eating and being eaten.
Becoming dominant means being out of tune with nature, not controlling it.
Your conception of "nature" is also a human invention. That which you call "Nature" is Earth's biosphere. The Universe is MUCH bigger than Earth.
Much unfriendlier to life or symbiosis also.
AlexW wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 pm
Also, dominance didn’t further our “well being”, look how depressed and unhappy most people are, all it did was lead to unchecked multiplying, but this will soon change as we not only eradicated our enemies but also our friends (plants, insects, etc etc).
You are arguing for the Noble Savage. The animal which accepts its fate (inevitable extinction) and waits for it. Happy.

The human spirit is rebellious.
AlexW wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 pm
Maybe we should measure "our own success" in units of happiness... that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Sadly, on the happiness scale, human kind might not be dominant, rather the opposite...
Happiness is for animals. Meaning is for humans.

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