Perception and Consciousness

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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AlexW
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by AlexW » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:38 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:03 am
Seeing consciousness as itself rather than as thought is something I find quite hard to do
I can understand it as a concept but simply accepting it is for me very counter intuitive
But consciousness is the only seeing that really sees. Thought only talks about the seen. Consciousness is the seen. Consciousness is also thought - this is why you (consciousness) can witness thought, but (the content of) thought cant witness consciousness.

It might be counter intuitive, or rather opposite to how thought works, to simply accept something as truth, but to find truth/consciousness in concepts is even more counter intuitive.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:03 am
This is because everything I know and experience is from my own personal perspective
This is not really true. You actually never experience anything from your own personal perspective - why? Because the personal perspective is only an idea, conceptual thought.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:03 am
So I am not aware of consciousness existing outside of me only of me being conscious
You cannot be "aware of consciousness existing outside" of you. Simply because there is no "you" that it could be outside of.
But: For the same reason you also don't ever experience a "me being conscious". The "me" is an idea. An idea cannot be conscious. It can be know, yes, but it itself cannot know anything. This is the major mistake: People identify with an idea - the separate me - and then they believe that this idea is conscious... (or to be more precise: consciousness identifies with an idea)
Last edited by AlexW on Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:24 am
Why can not we all just instinctively understand what consciousness is ?
You don't need to understand - all you have to do is just be still and know/be it.

What is being right here and now? Answer is: You are.

What are you?...you do not know what you are, you just ARE..
You are always prior to any thought about you. Thoughts are appearances within you that already IS (THOUGHTS are knowledge) - but what you are is not the thought, you are the consciousness in which the thoguth arises and knows every thought as and when it arises.

Consciousness has to be first...it's the only knowing there is... it's the first and last knowing. All knowing springs from the same place..SOURCE ...you are SOURCE....as Source, what you are is infinity for eternity.


surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:24 am
Why do we think physical reality exists if it is no more than an illusion ?
Physicality is just a concept, it's a thought...YOU as source knowing cannot know a concept without relating it to it's opposite...else the word ''physical'' wouldn't have no meaning or even make sense...knowing therefore knows ''physical'' only in relation to it's complimentary counterpart which is ''non-physical''

In truth then reality is actually ''NON-PHYSICAL''...it's both 'physical and non-physical' in the same instant..so reality is an illusion in the sense there is actually no 'thing' separating the apparent opposites. The mind that cuts reality in two, via 'thought' but the mind is just another ''thought'' not an actual literal thing...all ''things'' are images of the imageless, appearing real...but that which is looking at those images cannot be seen, it is the seeing and the seen in the same instant. So all opposites exist must exist as 'one thing', and 'one thing' is 'no thing' in the same instant.
Nothing and Everything.
Infinity Now.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:24 am
Why is consciousness not allowing all of us to see it for what it truly is ?
Because the you that you believe to exist is just a 'thought' ... and ''thoughts'' cannot see anything...in the absence of 'thought' there is left pure empty seeing / knowing consciousness observing and knowing itself. Any knowledge of itself is purely in relation, via concepts...therefore knowledge is an illusory story arising in SOURCE...which is sourceless, boundless, and infinitely free in every moment.
Source cannot live or die, because source is sourceless.

So what you are trying to look at is already what is looking, so if you get out of your own way (the thought of you) and drop out of the ''thought you'' and into that which is prior to the thought ...then what's left is just the pure consciousnesss of yourself.....but it's only ever consciousness itself performing every function, especially when it comes to the action of self-conscious recogintion. It's no thing being aware of itself...and is why it's known as an illusion, even though the illusion appears very real...that's the whole point, it has to look real, it's no different to a movie playing at the local cinema..everything looks real, but there is nothing behind the images on the screen except the light. That's why the contrast of light and shadow is needed...but it's all the same LIGHT.


.

surreptitious57
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:02 am

I think that I need more time to become familiar with the concept of consciousness and what it really is
But I am becoming more detached over time which is compatible with the notion of all reality as illusion

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:15 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:02 am
I think that I need more time to become familiar with the concept of consciousness and what it really is
But I am becoming more detached over time which is compatible with the notion of all reality as illusion
On a scale of 1 to 10 how much overlap do you think there is between the concepts of "consciousness" and "cognition"?

Where 1 is "entirely different concepts" and 10 means "synonymous/interchangeable".

Ramu
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Ramu » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:25 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:02 am
I think that I need more time to become familiar with the concept of consciousness and what it really is
But I am becoming more detached over time which is compatible with the notion of all reality as illusion
Consciousness, the very thing you are can be thought of as the Empty Container. Take a look at an object in the distance and point at it....then take your finger and point back to the source of the seeing, I.e., you point your finger back to where you think your face is....and you see Nothing...the finger points to The No Thing. But the No Thing as the Empty Container is filled with All Things...the rest of your body, other people, cars, buildings...The Universe is a projection out of the Void which is your True Self.

surreptitious57
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:13 pm

Logic wrote:
On a scale of I to I0 how much overlap do you think there is between the concepts of consciousness and cognition ?
Where I is entirely different concepts and I0 means synonymous / interchangeable
Everything is consciousness but not everything is cognition [ unless you are going to use a very
pedantic definition of cognition ] in which case there is absolutely no difference between them

surreptitious57
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:15 pm

I want to become as detached as possible while I am still alive and this for me is more important than understanding what consciousness
really is . Though I will still try to understand it as best as I can . I accept that death is simply a state of transition from consciousness to
non consciousness and nothing more . I have absolutely no problem being dead . Before I was conceived I was in a state of non existence
and felt no suffering at all . And when I die I will return to this state once again . I am old so there is not long to go [ relatively speaking ]

AlexW
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by AlexW » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:13 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:15 pm
I want to become as detached as possible while I am still alive and this for me is more important than understanding what consciousness really is
I spent years trying to understand - over the years one gains a certain level of conceptual knowledge, but the more understanding one seems to have the more frustrating the fact will become that life, happiness and wellbeing is still unaffected.
You still suffer! Why is this so? Because the understanding that "you are consciousness" is worth nothing as long as this is not a lived truth.
It can even be the opposite - you might become disillusioned as you seem to know the truth, but it doesn't matter - you still live life from the perspective of the small, separate self and thus you fear and suffer.

After a while (rather a long time) I understood: This is not a mental exercise!

Learning to ride a bike is not a mental exercise - you will have to jump on the thing and ride it, fall over, get up and do it all again. It's the same with living AS consciousness/awareness. To wake up you have to be awake as much as possible. Remain in the state where you ARE consciousness/awareness, where you stand apart from the ideas that thought spins all day, then, one day, out of the blue, a time will come when this is your natural state (as it was when you were born) - when you ARE consciousness knowingly all the time.
Only then suffering is gone, fear is gone, death is gone.

Atla
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Atla » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:48 pm

AlexW wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:13 am
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:15 pm
I want to become as detached as possible while I am still alive and this for me is more important than understanding what consciousness really is
I spent years trying to understand - over the years one gains a certain level of conceptual knowledge, but the more understanding one seems to have the more frustrating the fact will become that life, happiness and wellbeing is still unaffected.
You still suffer! Why is this so? Because the understanding that "you are consciousness" is worth nothing as long as this is not a lived truth.
It can even be the opposite - you might become disillusioned as you seem to know the truth, but it doesn't matter - you still live life from the perspective of the small, separate self and thus you fear and suffer.

After a while (rather a long time) I understood: This is not a mental exercise!

Learning to ride a bike is not a mental exercise - you will have to jump on the thing and ride it, fall over, get up and do it all again. It's the same with living AS consciousness/awareness. To wake up you have to be awake as much as possible. Remain in the state where you ARE consciousness/awareness, where you stand apart from the ideas that thought spins all day, then, one day, out of the blue, a time will come when this is your natural state (as it was when you were born) - when you ARE consciousness knowingly all the time.
Only then suffering is gone, fear is gone, death is gone.
Isn't forcing yourself into such a blissful state, antisocial? (Not quite the same as when we were born since we had no knowing self-awareness back then.)

AlexW
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by AlexW » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:57 pm

Atla wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:48 pm
Isn't forcing yourself into such a blissful state, antisocial? (Not quite the same as when we were born since we had no knowing self-awareness back then.)
No, if anything it’s the opposite as you are more open and aware of what’s actually going on. Also, it doesn’t mean that you lose your personality, likes and dislikes, its only that they don’t define you any longer.

Its also not about forcing anything, the well-being is a natural effect, not an artificial blissful state. Imagine you have been conditioned to be physically running all day long, you suddenly become aware of the fact and start to observe the madness behind this ingrained pattern, and suddenly, one day you stop running and only run when it’s actually appropriate. The ease and happiness that arises from the peace and rest you haven’t experienced for years might seem forced to the ones that are still constantly running, but it is actually quite natural. (agree, it's not the same as when we were born as now this state happens knowingly whereas then it was present without the conceptual understanding why)

Atla
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Atla » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:26 am

AlexW wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:57 pm
Atla wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:48 pm
Isn't forcing yourself into such a blissful state, antisocial? (Not quite the same as when we were born since we had no knowing self-awareness back then.)
No, if anything it’s the opposite as you are more open and aware of what’s actually going on. Also, it doesn’t mean that you lose your personality, likes and dislikes, its only that they don’t define you any longer.

Its also not about forcing anything, the well-being is a natural effect, not an artificial blissful state. Imagine you have been conditioned to be physically running all day long, you suddenly become aware of the fact and start to observe the madness behind this ingrained pattern, and suddenly, one day you stop running and only run when it’s actually appropriate. The ease and happiness that arises from the peace and rest you haven’t experienced for years might seem forced to the ones that are still constantly running, but it is actually quite natural. (agree, it's not the same as when we were born as now this state happens knowingly whereas then it was present without the conceptual understanding why)
I never attained any happiness from this. So mostly I would have to force it. It's a slightly more blissful state. Plus no one else around me would understand it.
It confirms that life is perfectly meaningless, which makes me suffer in a different way.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 am

Atla wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:26 am
I never attained any happiness from this. So mostly I would have to force it. It's a slightly more blissful state. Plus no one else around me would understand it.
It confirms that life is perfectly meaningless, which makes me suffer in a different way.
Life is meaningless.

Which is precisely why happiness is a choice. It is all that it can be.

Optimistic nihilism to the rescue.

AlexW
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by AlexW » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:40 am

Atla wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:26 am
It confirms that life is perfectly meaningless, which makes me suffer in a different way.
Well... imagine it would be the other way round - if life had one, and only one ultimate meaning.
Everybody would chase this one meaningful goal...

Guess it's not a bad thing that life has a different meaning for every individual - plus: meaning changes over time, sometimes even within minutes.
Now the meaning of life is writing this text, in a few minutes it is making coffee, a bit later it is talking to my kids...
The meaning of life = whatever happens Now
Logik wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 am
Life is meaningless.

Which is precisely why happiness is a choice.
How do these two connect? I don't really get your point... Please explain, thanks.

If happiness is a choice then why do people chose the opposite? Why are they sad and afraid?

surreptitious57
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:12 am

Alex wrote:
If happiness is a choice then why do people chose the opposite ?
Happiness is not a choice because no emotional state can actually be freely chosen
They are usually experienced without any significant degree of control if any at all

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:28 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:40 am
Logik wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 am
Life is meaningless.

Which is precisely why happiness is a choice.
How do these two connect? I don't really get your point... Please explain, thanks.

If happiness is a choice then why do people chose the opposite? Why are they sad and afraid?
When you spend half of your life searching for meaning - in science. In philosophy. in logic. In art. In religion. In spirituality. In .....<PICK YOUR FIELD OF INTEREST FROM THE SHOPPING MALL OF SOCIETY>

When you find out that there is nothing extrinsic to give your life meaning you begin searching for intrinsic reasons. You begin walking the path of knowing thyself. What lies down that path? Only questions! Little answers.

Eventually you have to ask your question "So why should I be happy if life is objectively meaningless?".

Because you can! Enjoy it for what it is! Meaningless! And simply do that which brings joy to you and to others!

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