Perception and Consciousness

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:46 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:33 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:29 pm
Nope, that number is still an appearance in consciousness that is already here, it's not a recreation of consciousness.
Now lets run an experiment on you.

A = А

Is this true or false?
I don't know if it's true or false, the symbol can be what ever it is imagined or believed to be.

What will put that true or false perception in place? ..and verify it to be true or false....please answer that?

.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:47 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:46 pm
I don't know if it's true or false, the symbol can be what ever it is imagined or believed to be.

What will put that true or false perception in place? ..and verify it to be true or false....please answer that?
OK. I'll make it easier for you.

Is the truth-value of A = A the same of the truth-value of A = А ?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:51 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:47 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:46 pm
I don't know if it's true or false, the symbol can be what ever it is imagined or believed to be.

What will put that true or false perception in place? ..and verify it to be true or false....please answer that?
OK. I'll make it easier for you.

Is the truth-value of A = A the same of the truth-value of A = А ?
Who wants to know?

..try asking a cat the same question and watch what happens..remember, all questions relate to an illusory self.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:51 pm

Wyman wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:43 am
Would anyone like to have a discussion about that part of consciousness we call 'perception'?

I believe that perception is an activity and that we are much more like an artist creating our conscious experience than we are mere receivers of our conscious experience. This is contrary to, among others, David Hume and the British Empiricists. Hume characterized perceptions as 'impressions' that were stamped upon the mind. Plato also once used the metaphor of a clay tablet in describing perception, with percepts stamped upon the tablet. Both philosophers therefore believed that we are passive in the process of perception.

I disagree with such a characterization of perception. I think that the brain takes raw data and actively creates a model or picture of that data. And often, the brain creates the same or similar models with significantly different inputs of data. The activity of perception is like all our activities - learned when young until most of it becomes rote and habituated. Take walking - as toddlers, we struggle to even control our large muscle groups in the legs. Only after much trial and error do we stand and then eventually walk. Eventually, we cease to think about our legs at all when we walk. We say 'I am going to walk to the store' and not 'I am going to move my leg muscles thus and so.'

Perception is no different. We first learn to see shapes and colors. Then faces and other recognizable physical objects. After a while, the brain and eyes automatically supply the shapes and colors and even more complex visual representations by habit. We think that shapes and colors are 'given' or 'stamped' upon us. But they are merely subconsciously perceived by the brain while our conscious perception focuses elsewhere - on the new, the different, the fast moving, etc..

We do not say that our muscle movements while walking are somehow 'given' to us by outside forces. We say that the movements are done subconsciously. And so with perception - just because much of perception seems to come to us involuntarily (whether we like it or not), this does not mean that these aspects of perception are stamped upon us.
I like to narrow down the topic of Perception to Sensory Perception. So I am interested in Vision, Hearing, Taste, Smell, and Touch. I would throw Pain into the mix as a Sensory Perception even though it isn't strictly one of the 5 Senses. But this is too broad a spectrum of Perception Phenomena to tackle all at once. I like to study and think about Vision and just how it is that we See. We know we See by reflected Light, of all Colors. I think it is good to start with one Color, namely Red and try to understand how we See it.

First of all there is the Red Electromagnetic Light that exists in the external World. But then there is the Redness experience that we have in our Minds. I have come to the point in my understanding that I can say: the Redness experience is not a Property of the Electromagnetic Red Light, but rather Redness is a Property of an Internal Consciousness thing in the Conscious Mind. The Redness experience in your Mind is a Surrogate for the Electromagnetic Red Phenomenon. Science says that the Red Electromagnetic Phenomenon has a Wavelength of around 690 nm. So we can say the Electromagnetic Phenomenon has a Property of 690 nm. The Conscious Redness Phenomenon has no Property of Wavelength. All there is, is Redness. Nobody can Explain what this Redness Experience Phenomenon is. It is purely an Internal Conscious Phenomenon and exists in some Conscious Realm, or Space.

So when I say I want to know what Red is I don't mean I want to know what the 690 nm Electromagnetic Phenomenon is, but rather I want to know what that Redness is that is in my Conscious Mind. That is the thing I am studying and thinking about with regard to Perception. Also, this is the Hard Problem of Conscious Perception. There is an Explanatory Gap involved in going from Electromagnetic Red Light, to Neural Activity, and finally to the Conscious Perception of Redness.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:54 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:51 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:47 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:46 pm
I don't know if it's true or false, the symbol can be what ever it is imagined or believed to be.

What will put that true or false perception in place? ..and verify it to be true or false....please answer that?
OK. I'll make it easier for you.

Is the truth-value of A = A the same of the truth-value of A = А ?
Who wants to know?

..try asking a cat the same question and watch what happens..remember, all questions relate to an illusory self.

.
Somebody, anybody, nobody and everybody wants to know.

Notice that you are skirting around the issue.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:58 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:54 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:51 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:47 pm


OK. I'll make it easier for you.

Is the truth-value of A = A the same of the truth-value of A = А ?
Who wants to know?

..try asking a cat the same question and watch what happens..remember, all questions relate to an illusory self.

.
Somebody, anybody, nobody and everybody wants to know.

Notice that you are skirting around the issue.
To want to know is to create a knowledge known.

Knowledge is an appearance within unknowing, become known, so it has no reality, it's no more than just imagined dreamscape.

But lets get back on topic..please explain why and how consciousness is an emergent of the brain ..how do you know that?

.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:00 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:58 pm
To want to know is to create a knowledge known.

Knowledge is an appearance within unknowing, become known, so it has no reality, it's no more than just imagined dreamscape.

But lets get back on topic..please explain why and how consciousness is an emergent of the brain ..how do you know that?
Would you like some SCUBA gear, so you can dive further into the abyss?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:02 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:00 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:58 pm
To want to know is to create a knowledge known.

Knowledge is an appearance within unknowing, become known, so it has no reality, it's no more than just imagined dreamscape.

But lets get back on topic..please explain why and how consciousness is an emergent of the brain ..how do you know that?
Would you like some SCUBA gear, so you can dive further into the abyss?

It's no good just saying something you think you know without actually understanding what it is you think you know.

How do you know that consciousness is a by-product of the brain?

.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:02 pm
It's no good just saying something you think you know without actually understanding what it is you think you know.
Are you sure you understand the meaning of understanding?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:12 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:02 pm
It's no good just saying something you think you know without actually understanding what it is you think you know.
Are you sure you understand the meaning of understanding?
The thing is, you just don't know that consciousness is a by-product of the brain, and that is all I am trying to point out to you.

You and other people make these wild blind assumptions that you believe is true.

If you are 100% sure that consciousness is a by-product of the brain, then please explain how you know that to be true?

You just can't know that can you? ..why don't you just be honest and admit it?



.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:12 pm
The thing is, you just don't know that consciousness is a by-product of the brain, and that is all I am trying to point out to you.
Forget consciousness. You don't know what knowledge is, so you keep falling into circular reasoning.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:18 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:12 pm
The thing is, you just don't know that consciousness is a by-product of the brain, and that is all I am trying to point out to you.
Forget consciousness. You don't know what knowledge is, so you keep falling into circular reasoning.
Knowledge is dreamscape, it's an illusory appearance of consciousness that you know nothing about because you don't care about it remember?

.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:19 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:18 pm
Knowledge is dreamscape, it's an illusory appearance of consciousness that you know nothing about because you don't care about it remember?
if you don't know what knowledge is how do you know that I don't care?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:22 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:19 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:18 pm
Knowledge is dreamscape, it's an illusory appearance of consciousness that you know nothing about because you don't care about it remember?
if you don't know what knowledge is how do you know that I don't care?
Questions relate to an illusory self...Stop identifying with the dream self, and get back to the source in which the dream self is arising.

How do you know that consciousness is a by-product of the brain?

.

Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:22 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:22 pm
How do you know that consciousness is a by-product of the brain?
I don't have any knowledge.

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