Perception and Consciousness

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:40 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:33 pm no thing observing itself
I observe myself. It's called self-awareness....
Self-awareness is no thing aware of itself. That's the SELF

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Ramu
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

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Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:20 pm
Ramu wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:16 pm If you are a materialist then you BELIEVE based on a concept that everything we experience is happening in a brain. So then where is the brain occurring? In the body? But if your body and everything is happening in a brain, then where is this brain occurring? Consciousness does not occur in a brain. Rather the brain and all concepts are occurring in Consciousness. You will not find "you"in your brain despite all illusory concepts that like to say otherwise.
I am a model-dependent realist.

Ever heard of systems/complexity theory?
The concept of emergence?

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItTWZc7hKs
An object like a body or brain cannot perceive itself.
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Ramu wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:54 pm
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:20 pm
Ramu wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:16 pm If you are a materialist then you BELIEVE based on a concept that everything we experience is happening in a brain. So then where is the brain occurring? In the body? But if your body and everything is happening in a brain, then where is this brain occurring? Consciousness does not occur in a brain. Rather the brain and all concepts are occurring in Consciousness. You will not find "you"in your brain despite all illusory concepts that like to say otherwise.
I am a model-dependent realist.

Ever heard of systems/complexity theory?
The concept of emergence?

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItTWZc7hKs
An object like a body or brain cannot perceive itself.
Sure. But consciousness can.

That is why it's an emergent property.
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Ramu »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:35 pm
Ramu wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:54 pm
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:20 pm
I am a model-dependent realist.

Ever heard of systems/complexity theory?
The concept of emergence?

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItTWZc7hKs
An object like a body or brain cannot perceive itself.
Sure. But consciousness can.

That is why it's an emergent property.
Except consciousness is NOT an epiphenomenon of a brain. Brains occur in Consciousness. Consciousness is first order. Everything else is second order.
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

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Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:35 pm

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.
The brain is an object...objects do not have consciousness.

All objects 'exist' only as conceptions within the knowing which is one with Consciousness.

The world and all objects are thought of as 'extending in time and space'. They do not. As a dream they have no reality. They exist in no place and no time.



Do you understand ?
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:25 pm
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:35 pm

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.
The brain is an object...objects do not have consciousness.

All objects 'exist' only as conceptions within the knowing which is one with Consciousness.

The world and all objects are thought of as 'extending in time and space'. They do not. As a dream they have no reality. They exist in no place and no time.



Do you understand ?
No I don't. And I don't care to learn from you.
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:25 pm
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:35 pm

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.
The brain is an object...objects do not have consciousness.

All objects 'exist' only as conceptions within the knowing which is one with Consciousness.

The world and all objects are thought of as 'extending in time and space'. They do not. As a dream they have no reality. They exist in no place and no time.



Do you understand ?
No I don't. And I don't care to learn from you.
The only thing you need to learn is to unlearn the idea that consciousness is an emergent of matter...at least until you know that for real.

How do you know that consciousness is an emergence of matter? and can you explain this knowing in your own words only ?...in a real introspective genuine way that only you can truely and directly experience for yourself...can you do that without using endless links of information written and believed by other people that then validates your own belief that then according to you must be true.

Are you fully wide open to the truth or not? Only you have the truth, we all have the truth because we are the truth, all of us, it's not just available to some elite, no one has a monopoly on truth and others don't, we all have it.

The truth is closer than your very own skin, and all we are doing is pointing each other to their own truth that was within them all along.
If you believe what you believe then you have to be able to explain that truth in your own words, but I have never heard you doing anything of the sort.

Are you just going to shut down when the going gets tough? ..just because you dont understand something?

I personally am very open to understanding and would very much like to know how you know that consciousness is an emergent of matter. I would like you to explain in your own words only from your own direct experience though, how you know this is true for real ?

What is talked about here is our own direct experience of what we think consciousness is. So what is consciousness to you and what makes you say it is an emergent of matter..there is no point in clinging to half baked ideas about what is generally believed to be the hard problem of consciousness...perhaps it's not a hard problem at all, perhaps it's actually very easy to understand but only if we are willing and open enough to go deeper into the subject?

Therefore, you must be able to explain what you know for real, rather than just making half baked assumptions based on what other people have believed and said as if other people have the truth and you just blindly go along with it. The hard work is really having to work this out for yourself experiencially, you need to really ask yourself very introspectively...if those other people have the truth that you are believing also then where are they getting that truth from, and is it really your truth...or is it really the
Asbolute truth? ...and if you believe someone else has the truth, then that should tell you that you must also have it too. A truth that ONLY you can explain because it's self evident to you only, and lets be honest, the only real true evidence anyone ever has about anything is their first hand account of it...and to know that everything else is just heresy.

So that's when you have to be absolutely sure you know what you are talking about, so what does consciousness mean to you, what actually is it, can you see it, can you measure it, can you hold it in your hand and show it to people ? ..it's no good just talking about something like consciousness without fully understanding what it actually is...and then just saying consciousness is generated by the brain or is a by-product of the brain...what actually does that mean anyway?

If you were the only person alive right now, how the heck would you even know what is a brain? you have never seen your own brain, let alone know what is making you conscious of yourself...and this is the important thing you are up against here...that sense of selfness is just a concept, but where exactly is it occuring? ...remember, you have never seen your brain....so where are these concepts arising from and to whom, see how tricky this is when you have got no sense of self to relate it to..when you have got no concepts/ language? ..what and where are you outside of your language? ...and also remember, knowing is not the same as knowledge, knowing doesn't require knowledge, knowing just is by just being..any knowledge of that is secondary, which is all imagined dreamscape.

This is what you really need to consider when talking about all things metaphysical...this is the only true and real philosophy, everything else is just pure imagination, dreamscape fantasy with no reality or substance to it whatsoever.

.
Logik
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:04 pm
Logik wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:25 pm

The brain is an object...objects do not have consciousness.

All objects 'exist' only as conceptions within the knowing which is one with Consciousness.

The world and all objects are thought of as 'extending in time and space'. They do not. As a dream they have no reality. They exist in no place and no time.



Do you understand ?
No I don't. And I don't care to learn from you.
The only thing you need to learn is to unlearn the idea that consciousness is an emergent of matter...at least until you know that for real.

How do you know that consciousness is an emergence of matter? and can you explain this knowing in your own words only ?...in a real introspective genuine way that only you can truely and directly experience for yourself...can you do that without using endless links of information written and believed by other people that then validates your own belief that then according to you must be true.

Are you fully wide open to the truth or not? Only you have the truth, we all have the truth because we are the truth, all of us, it's not just available to some elite, no one has a monopoly on truth and others don't, we all have it.

The truth is closer than your very own skin, and all we are doing is pointing each other to their own truth that was within them all along.
If you believe what you believe then you have to be able to explain that truth in your own words, but I have never heard you doing anything of the sort.

Are you just going to shut down when the going gets tough? ..just because you dont understand something?

I personally am very open to understanding and would very much like to know how you know that consciousness is an emergent of matter. I would like you to explain in your own words only from your own direct experience though, how you know this is true for real ?

What is talked about here is our own direct experience of what we think consciousness is. So what is consciousness to you and what makes you say it is an emergent of matter..there is no point in clinging to half baked ideas about what is generally believed to be the hard problem of consciousness...perhaps it's not a hard problem at all, perhaps it's actually very easy to understand but only if we are willing and open enough to go deeper into the subject?

Therefore, you must be able to explain what you know for real, rather than just making half baked assumptions based on what other people have believed and said as if other people have the truth and you just blindly go along with it. The hard work is really having to work this out for yourself experiencially, you need to really ask yourself very introspectively...if those other people have the truth that you are believing also then where are they getting that truth from, and is it really your truth...or is it really the
Asbolute truth? ...and if you believe someone else has the truth, then that should tell you that you must also have it too. A truth that ONLY you can explain because it's self evident to you only, and lets be honest, the only real true evidence anyone ever has about anything is their first hand account of it...and to know that everything else is just heresy.

So that's when you have to be absolutely sure you know what you are talking about, so what does consciousness mean to you, what actually is it, can you see it, can you measure it, can you hold it in your hand and show it to people ? ..it's no good just talking about something like consciousness without fully understanding what it actually is...and then just saying consciousness is generated by the brain or is a by-product of the brain...what actually does that mean anyway?

If you were the only person alive right now, how the heck would you even know what is a brain? you have never seen your own brain, let alone know what is making you conscious of yourself...and this is the important thing you are up against here...that sense of selfness is just a concept, but where exactly is it occuring? ...remember, you have never seen your brain....so where are these concepts arising from and to whom, see how tricky this is when you have got no sense of self to relate it to..when you have got no concepts/ language? ..what and where are you outside of your language? ...and also remember, knowing is not the same as knowledge, knowing doesn't require knowledge, knowing just is by just being..any knowledge of that is secondary, which is all imagined dreamscape.

This is what you really need to consider when talking about all things metaphysical...this is the only true and real philosophy, everything else is just pure imagination, dreamscape fantasy with no reality or substance to it whatsoever.

.
I don't care what consciousness is. In fact. I don't care what anything "IS" really. I don't care much for ontological questions.

What I do care about is how things BEHAVE and how things interact and the consequences of such interactions.

I care about how consciousness works. To the best of my understanding the primary property of consciousness is pattern recognition.

If you want to see what I mean go play this game: https://quickdraw.withgoogle.com/#

Help us train Skynet!
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

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Logik wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:36 pm I don't care what consciousness is. In fact. I don't care what anything "IS" really. I don't care much for ontological questions.

What I do care about is how things BEHAVE and how things interact and the consequences of such interactions.


Ontological questions can only relate to the illusory self...does a cat or a dog ever question it's reality?

So who do you think questions it's reality? ...lets start there eh?

Why do you care about the behaviour of things and how they interact? ..who wants to know all that?

If you have no idea to whom such knowledge would be of use and be relevant..so your not really making any sense here on this thread topic about perception and consciousness.

And by stating that you know for certain that consciousness is a by-product of the brain and then also stating that you don't even care what it is ..is a rather shambolic and a sloppy thing to say really... how the heck are you ever going to understand anything about the behaviour of ''things'' then?

We're in the mind section of the PN forum it's about all things to so with the mind..this particular topic is about consciousness and perception...so why are you here then if you don't care about these concepts?

So then you say you care about ''things''....First of all you have to define what these ''things'' actually are before you can proceed to pretend like you actually give a damn about how they interact and the consequences of those interactions.

What do you even mean when you talk about interact and consequences ? ...to Who? What? Where? When? Why?.does all this pertain to reality anyway? do you even know the answer to your own desire to learn about something?

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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:37 pm
Logik wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:36 pm I don't care what consciousness is. In fact. I don't care what anything "IS" really. I don't care much for ontological questions.

What I do care about is how things BEHAVE and how things interact and the consequences of such interactions.


Ontological questions can only relate to the illusory self...does a cat or a dog ever question it's reality?

So who do you think questions it's reality? ...lets start there eh?

Why do you care about the behaviour of things and how they interact? ..who wants to know all that?

If you have no idea to whom such knowledge would be of use and be relevant..so your not really making any sense here on this thread topic about perception and consciousness.

And by stating that you know for certain that consciousness is a by-product of the brain and then also stating that you don't even care what it is ..is a rather shambolic and a sloppy thing to say really... how the heck are you ever going to understand anything about the behaviour of ''things'' then?

What do you even mean when you talk about interact and consequences ? ...to Who? What? Where? When? Why?.does all this pertain to reality anyway? do you even know the answer to your own desire to learn about something?

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Lets not start there.

Lets just build an AI whose intelligence is indistinguishable from that of a human.

And then the question of 'what consciousness is" becomes irrelevant.
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:37 pm We're in the mind section of the PN forum it's about all things to so with the mind..this particular topic is about consciousness and perception...so why are you here then if you don't care about these concepts?
Because I work on Artificial Intelligence. I am actually trying to create consciousness. You are just trying to pontificate about it.
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:37 pm So then you say you care about ''things''....First of all you have to define what these ''things'' actually are before you can proceed to pretend like you actually give a damn about how they interact and the consequences of those interactions.
No. You don't have to define what things ARE. You just have to define what things DO and how they BEHAVE.
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:36 pm
I care about how consciousness works.
But if you don't care what it is, or even want to bother to find out what it is, then why care about how it works?

Shouldn't you at least know what the concept is first before assuming it catergorically exists according to your belief? and then adding to that to state you even know how it exists, and where it actually comes from...?

There's something missing from your understanding here, is there not?

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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:42 pm But if you don't care what it is, or even want to bother to find out what it is, then why care about how it works?
Because I want to build an artificial one?
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:42 pm
But if you don't care what it is, or even want to bother to find out what it is, then why care about how it works?

Shouldn't you at least know what the concept is first before assuming it catergorically exists according to your belief? and then adding to that to state you even know how it exists, and where it actually comes from...?

There's something missing from your understanding here, is there not?
No. Nothing is missing.

Your conception of 'understanding" is fundamentally different to mine.

That which I cannot create - I do not understand.
Conversely. That which I can create I do understand.

I am trying to create consciousness.

If I succeed - then I understand it.
If I don't succeed - then I don't understand it.

We didn't have to know what a 'mind' is before we built mechanical minds called computers. Did we?
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Logik »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:42 pm
Logik wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:36 pm
I care about how consciousness works.
But if you don't care what it is, or even want to bother to find out what it is, then why care about how it works?
Conversely - I can ask you this question. If you aren't trying to build one, then why do you even care what it is?
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Re: Perception and Consciousness

Post by Dontaskme »

Logik wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:44 pm
That which I cannot create - I do not understand.
Conversely. That which I can create I do understand.

I am trying to create consciousness.

If I succeed - then I understand it.
If I don't succeed - then I don't understand it.

We didn't have to know what a 'mind' is before we built mechanical minds called computers. Did we?
A computer does not have a mechanical mind, because a computer is a dream story arising in no thing, from no thing, and is no thing. Can you actually trace the mechanical mind computer dream story ...back to it's original source / creator and say catergorically it actually exists as a thing in and of itself in the world of space and time? ...or it is just an idea / dreamscape appearance of infinite nothingness ?

Reality is nothing but appearances ...when the right conditions interact with each other. Take away the conditions and the whole appearance collapses...so what is actually real here, everything is in constant flux and shapeshifting from one form to another, it's nothing interacting with itself.

Logik wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:44 pmBecause I work on Artificial Intelligence. I am actually trying to create consciousness.
What if the one you believe can create consciousness, namely you, aka Logik...is already AI ?

Do you honestly believe that that which only exists as a dream character can recreate itself? ..that's like saying there can be more than one consciousness...aka infinity...if you don't care what consciousness is then what makes you think you can recreate it? how can you create something you have never seen?




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