Perception and Consciousness

[Ramu]

Would anyone like to have a discussion about that part of consciousness we call 'perception'?

I believe that perception is an activity and that we are much more like an artist creating our conscious experience than we are mere receivers of our conscious experience. This is contrary to, among others, David Hume and the British Empiricists. Hume characterized perceptions as 'impressions' that were stamped upon the mind. Plato also once used the metaphor of a clay tablet in describing perception, with percepts stamped upon the tablet. Both philosophers therefore believed that we are passive in the process of perception.

I disagree with such a characterization of perception. I think that the brain takes raw data and actively creates a model or picture of that data. And often, the brain creates the same or similar models with significantly different inputs of data. The activity of perception is like all our activities - learned when young until most of it becomes rote and habituated. Take walking - as toddlers, we struggle to even control our large muscle groups in the legs. Only after much trial and error do we stand and then eventually walk. Eventually, we cease to think about our legs at all when we walk. We say 'I am going to walk to the store' and not 'I am going to move my leg muscles thus and so.'

Perception is no different. We first learn to see shapes and colors. Then faces and other recognizable physical objects. After a while, the brain and eyes automatically supply the shapes and colors and even more complex visual representations by habit. We think that shapes and colors are 'given' or 'stamped' upon us. But they are merely subconsciously perceived by the brain while our conscious perception focuses elsewhere - on the new, the different, the fast moving, etc..

We do not say that our muscle movements while walking are somehow 'given' to us by outside forces. We say that the movements are done subconsciously. And so with perception - just because much of perception seems to come to us involuntarily (whether we like it or not), this does not mean that these aspects of perception are stamped upon us.

Perception is an illusion. Who is doing the perceiving?

[Logik]

Perception is an illusion. Who is doing the perceiving?

Asking WHO is an ontological question.

Ontology is an illusion in an entangled universe.

[Ramu]

Perception is an illusion. Who is doing the perceiving?

Asking WHO is an ontological question.

Ontology is an illusion in an entangled universe.

It's metaphysical question. There is No Body perceiving. No Thing is perceiving.

[Logik]

It's metaphysical question. There is No Body perceiving. No Thing is perceiving.

Logic is metaphysics. Metaphysics is logic ( https://philpapers.org/archive/ALVLIM-3.pdf )

Logic doesn't have any semantics for asking questions.
Logic only allows for formulating propositions.

So if you can't ask questions in metaphysics/logic. Then it's equally valid to ask WHO is doing the asking (perceiving)?

[Dontaskme]

Perception is an illusion. Who is doing the perceiving?

Asking WHO is an ontological question.

Ontology is an illusion in an entangled universe.

You are only ever asking yourself.

You only will ever have one question to all your answers...who wants to know?

A question can only arise to the sense of a separate self...where none exists.

.

[Ramu]

It's metaphysical question. There is No Body perceiving. No Thing is perceiving.

Logic is metaphysics. Metaphysics is logic ( https://philpapers.org/archive/ALVLIM-3.pdf )

Logic doesn't have any semantics for asking questions.
Logic only allows for formulating propositions.

So if you can't ask questions in metaphysics/logic. Then it's equally valid to ask WHO is doing the asking (perceiving)?

But WHERE is the perceiving happening? It's not happening in a brain.

[Logik]

But WHERE is the perceiving happening? It's not happening in a brain.

If you say so.

It's national no-quackery day today. So I'll just exercise abstinence from engaging further.

[Ramu]

But WHERE is the perceiving happening? It's not happening in a brain.

If you say so.

It's national no-quackery day today. So I'll just exercise abstinence from engaging further.

If you are a materialist then you BELIEVE based on a concept that everything we experience is happening in a brain. So then where is the brain occurring? In the body? But if your body and everything is happening in a brain, then where is this brain occurring? Consciousness does not occur in a brain. Rather the brain and all concepts are occurring in Consciousness. You will not find "you"in your brain despite all illusory concepts that like to say otherwise.

[Logik]

If you are a materialist then you BELIEVE based on a concept that everything we experience is happening in a brain. So then where is the brain occurring? In the body? But if your body and everything is happening in a brain, then where is this brain occurring? Consciousness does not occur in a brain. Rather the brain and all concepts are occurring in Consciousness. You will not find "you"in your brain despite all illusory concepts that like to say otherwise.

I am a model-dependent realist.

Ever heard of systems/complexity theory?
The concept of emergence?

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItTWZc7hKs

[Dontaskme]

Consciousness is an emergent property of brains.

Consciousness and Brain are concepts...which are perceptions...aka mental thoughts arising in consciousness.

You are consciousness, you do not emerge, ...only the thought of you emerges, and that thought emerges because consciousness is there first to be aware and to perceive the thought...consciousness is prior to thought...thoughts are concepts, they are emergences of functioning consciousness that has no exact location and cannot be contained, consciousness is the sourceless source of all known concepts.

Consciousness is synonymous to no thing which is every thing in the exact same instant. Here Now - Nowhere.





.

[Logik]

Consciousness and Brain are concepts...which are perceptions...aka mental thoughts arising in consciousness.

You are consciousness, you do not emerge, ...only the thought of you emerges, and that thought emerges because consciousness is there first to be aware and to perceive the thought...consciousness is prior to thought...thoughts are concepts, they are emergences of functioning consciousness that has no exact location and cannot be contained, consciousness is the sourceless source of all known concepts.

Consciousness is synonymous to no thing which is every thing in the exact same instant. Here Now - Nowhere.

That's not a very useful conception of the concept of consciousness.

[Dontaskme]

Consciousness and Brain are concepts...which are perceptions...aka mental thoughts arising in consciousness.

You are consciousness, you do not emerge, ...only the thought of you emerges, and that thought emerges because consciousness is there first to be aware and to perceive the thought...consciousness is prior to thought...thoughts are concepts, they are emergences of functioning consciousness that has no exact location and cannot be contained, consciousness is the sourceless source of all known concepts.

Consciousness is synonymous to no thing which is every thing in the exact same instant. Here Now - Nowhere.

That's not a very useful conception of the concept of consciousness.

Consciousness has no use for concepts, consciousness has no concept of itself except in the dream of separation, in this conception, the conception of no thing... consciousness simply observes the dream for what it is, appearances that come and go in it...in other words, the conceptual dream has no actual location or substance apart from consciousness itself which is without begining nor end, everyhwere and nowhere simultaneously.

.

[Logik]

Consciousness has no use for concepts, consciousness has no concept of itself except in the dream of separation, in this conception, the conception of no thing... consciousness simply observes the dream for what it is, appearances that come and go in it...in other words, the conceptual dream has no actual location or substance apart from consciousness itself which is without begining nor end, everyhwere and nowhere simultaneously.

So consciousness is completely inert? it only observes but doesn't interact with its observations?

e.g it has no measurable/empirical effect on reality?

Like God?

[Dontaskme]

Consciousness has no use for concepts, consciousness has no concept of itself except in the dream of separation, in this conception, the conception of no thing... consciousness simply observes the dream for what it is, appearances that come and go in it...in other words, the conceptual dream has no actual location or substance apart from consciousness itself which is without begining nor end, everyhwere and nowhere simultaneously.

So consciousness is completely inert? it only observes but doesn't interact with its observations?

e.g it has no measurable/empirical effect on reality?

Like God?

Not really sure what you mean...but

An observation is consciousness aka no thing observing itself, so consciousness is not what it observes. The observed is the effect of consciousness, it's the mirage, there are here only effects, so no thing is actually interacting with itself.

.

[Logik]

no thing observing itself

I observe myself. It's called self-awareness....