Mind is eternal

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:20 pm

bahman wrote:
Something which is contained could be free if we accept freedom of will . Basically a thing which is made of parts is free
only if its part is free . Freedom in another word cannot exist in something structured where its parts are not free
Objects and their parts are mostly empty space at the quantum level and empty space is fundamentally free
The apparent structure and solidity of objects only exists at the classical level but this is actually an illusion

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:24 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:20 pm
bahman wrote:
Something which is contained could be free if we accept freedom of will . Basically a thing which is made of parts is free
only if its part is free . Freedom in another word cannot exist in something structured where its parts are not free
Objects and their parts are mostly empty space at the quantum level and empty space is fundamentally free
The apparent structure and solidity of objects only exists at the classical level but this is actually an illusion
We know that. My point was about free will rather that freedom of motion.

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:28 pm

bahman wrote:
Why this function is not performed in dark ?
Absence of light is not necessarily a problem and from an evolutionary perspective is actually a positive
As it can protect some life forms from others and also adaptation to environment is very diverse indeed

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:30 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:28 pm
bahman wrote:
Why this function is not performed in dark ?
Absence of light is not necessarily a problem and from an evolutionary perspective is actually a positive
As it can protect some life forms from others and also adaptation to environment is very diverse indeed
By dark, I mean the absence of experience. Sorry for not being more clearer.

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:35 pm

bahman wrote:
My point was about free will rather that freedom of motion
Free will is the ability to choose between actual possibilities where there exist no mental barriers
Mind is not a physical structure but a function of a structure and its freedom can change over time

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:41 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:35 pm
bahman wrote:
My point was about free will rather that freedom of motion
Free will is the ability to choose between actual possibilities where there exist no mental barriers
You mean physical barrier instead of mental barrier?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:35 pm
Mind is not a physical structure but a function of a structure and its freedom can change over time
Well if you define mind as a function of a structure then mind can only be free if the parts, what make the thing, are free.

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:43 pm

bahman wrote:
By dark I mean the absence of experience
A more accurate description would be absence of existence rather than experience
A body can still experience without knowing it is experiencing such as for example when it is asleep
So not all experience will necessarily be known and much of conscious experience is filtered as well

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:46 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:43 pm
bahman wrote:
By dark I mean the absence of experience
A more accurate description would be absence of existence rather than experience
A body can still experience without knowing it is experiencing such as for example when it is asleep
So not all experience will necessarily be known and much of conscious experience is filtered as well
So, we can function without experience? What is the point of experience then?

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:51 pm

bahman wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Free will is the ability to choose between actual possibilities where there exist no mental barriers
You mean physical barriers instead of mental barriers
I mean mental barriers such as social / moral / legal / psychological / philosophical
All of these can [ and do ] prevent possible choices from being exercised by free will

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:01 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:51 pm
bahman wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Free will is the ability to choose between actual possibilities where there exist no mental barriers
You mean physical barriers instead of mental barriers
I mean mental barriers such as social / moral / legal / psychological / philosophical
All of these can [ and do ] prevent possible choices from being exercised by free will
But mental barrier has no capacity to prevent free will. I can insult anyone. I choose not too.

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:01 pm

bahman wrote:
So we can function without experience ? What is the point of experience then ?
It is not actually necessary to be aware of all that you experience which is why it is filtered
But while the body may not be aware of everything the mind is as it processes all it senses

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:07 pm

bahman wrote:
But mental barrier has no capacity to prevent free will . I can insult anyone . I choose not too
You choosing not to is actually the imposition of a mental barrier otherwise it would violate your moral code
Even if you did overrule your moral code and insulted someone you would still feel guilty for having done so

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:13 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:07 pm
bahman wrote:
But mental barrier has no capacity to prevent free will . I can insult anyone . I choose not too
You choosing not to is actually the imposition of a mental barrier otherwise it would violate your moral code
Even if you did overrule your moral code and insulted someone you would still feel guilty for having done so
I might feel guilty or not depending on situation. Feeling guilty after action has nothing to do with free will.

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:15 pm

bahman wrote:
I might feel guilty or not depending on situation . Feeling guilty after action has nothing to do with free will
You can either feel guilty or not guilty so that has everything to do with free will because you have a choice
Any time you choose between two or more possibilities you are exercising it whether or not you accept this

Logik
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:41 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:13 pm
I might feel guilty or not depending on situation. Feeling guilty after action has nothing to do with free will.
"Guilt" is the primary mechanism for enforcing social norms. Peer pressure.

Whether you feel guilt is not up to you - our brains are just wired that way.

If you (consciously or subconsciously) don't like the feeling of guilt you may end up avoiding behaviour which you associate with the negative emotion.

It's statistically validated and all that. You can develop a habit to ignore guilt, or recognise it early so you don't allow yourself to be manipulated through guilt.

Either way, if you respond to guilt - you do not have free will.

What free will means to me is practically the same as anarchy: Refusal to recognise any and all authorities. Except the limits imposed on me by the laws of physics.

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