Mind is eternal

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am
bahman wrote:
To me a being is a set of interacting minds
I cannot understand how a thing which has no structure can hold information
A being only requires one mind not many [ do you know of anything that exists that actually has more than one mind ]
Yes, human has many minds. Have you ever wondered that a mind needed for each change in your body?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am
A thing with no structure has no physicality so therefore cannot be classed as a thing because it cannot exist in reality
Mind in fact has no structure and exist. In fact one can argue that the fundamental entity in reality must be irreducible otherwise nothing can exist.

seeds
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm
To me a being is a set of interacting minds
I cannot understand how a thing which has no structure can hold information
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am
A being only requires one mind not many [ do you know of anything that exists that actually has more than one mind ]
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm
Yes, human has many minds. Have you ever wondered that a mind needed for each change in your body?
bahman, I don't mean to offend you in any way, but the idea of a singular human having “many minds” is utter nonsense.

Furthermore, other than the mind’s** control over the body’s musculature and thus its movements...

...whatever changes that are taking place with respect to the physical body are under the purview and guidance of the programming implicit within the body’s DNA structures and have nothing to do with the mind.

**(make that the mind's self-aware “agent” doing the controlling.)
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am
A thing with no structure has no physicality so therefore cannot be classed as a thing because it cannot exist in reality
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm
Mind in fact has no structure and exist.
Again, more nonsense.

The human mind is a highly structured phenomenon that is comprised of a central consciousness that is in possession of an infinitely malleable essence that the central consciousness (again, the abovementioned “agent”)can willfully shape into absolutely anything it can imagine.

In which case, how in the world can you claim that it has no structure?
_______
Last edited by seeds on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Impenitent
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Impenitent » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:20 pm

4 out of 5 pineal glands agree

-Imp

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm
To me a being is a set of interacting minds
I cannot understand how a thing which has no structure can hold information
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am
A being only requires one mind not many [ do you know of anything that exists that actually has more than one mind ]
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm
Yes, human has many minds. Have you ever wondered that a mind needed for each change in your body?
bahman, I don't mean to offend you in any way, but the idea of a singlular human having “many minds” is utter nonsense.
It is not nonsense. It would make sense if you are patient enough. I have an argument for this.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
Furthermore, other than the mind’s** control over the body’s musculature and thus its movements...

...whatever changes that are taking place with respect to the physical body are under the purview and guidance of the programming implicit within the body’s DNA structures and have nothing to do with the mind.
For this we need to agree that a mind is needed for any change. Here is the argument:
Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y is caused. We have nothing once X is vanished and Y cannot be caused from nothing. Therefore there must be a mind which is aware of X and causes Y.

This is first step so feel free to investigate and let me know what do you think.

Now that we established the first step, we need to show that there are at least two minds involved in changes. The first mind is you. You experience, decide and cause certain things. How about the rest of changes that you experience or not experiences but you are not in charge of them? We already argue that a mind is needed for any change and you know that there are changes that you are not in charge of them. Therefore there is at least one more mind in charge of the rest of changes.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
**(make that the mind's self-aware “agent” doing the controlling.)
Not all the control. There are other changes that they are not under your control.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:05 pm
Mind in fact has no structure and exist.
Again, more nonsense.

The human mind is a highly structured phenomenon that is comprised of a central consciousness that is in possession of an infinitely malleable essence that the central consciousness (again, the abovementioned “agent”)can willfully shape into absolutely anything it can imagine.

In which case, how in the world can you claim that it has no structure?
_______
Could you please tell me that what mind is made of?

1) Consciousness cannot emerge from something structured.
2) Something structured cannot be free.
3) Something which is structured cannot cause.

I have an argument for each of these. But let's first see your answer to the question.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Dalek Prime » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:20 am

The pattern of matter which allows for mind does get annihilated. If my former self then nourishes a potato, which accepts the matter, that potato doesn't get any smarter for it.

Come on. Does anyone seriously believe there are eternal minds prancing around? Please, feel free to speculate and make shit up. But let's not entertain it as anything other than unlikely.

Simple solution? If you can't measure it, it probably doesn't exist, save for shits and giggles. And it really bugs me that I even have to repeat this point, over and over again.

seeds
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
Furthermore, other than the mind’s** control over the body’s musculature and thus its movements...

...whatever changes that are taking place with respect to the physical body are under the purview and guidance of the programming implicit within the body’s DNA structures and have nothing to do with the mind.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
For this we need to agree that a mind is needed for any change. Here is the argument:
Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y is caused.
Wrong. Y is simply a transformation of X into Y.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
We have nothing once X is vanished...
But X never actually vanished, it was merely transformed into what you are now calling Y.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
...and Y cannot be caused from nothing...
Y was not caused from nothing; Y is founded upon the pre-existence of what was once called X. In other words, without the pre-existence of X there could be no Y.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
...Therefore there must be a mind which is aware of X and causes Y.

This is first step so feel free to investigate and let me know what do you think.
Well, the first thing that I think is that your introduction of “mind” into the above argument is a brazen non-sequitur.

And the second thing that I think is that you need to provide us with some actual examples of the “systems” that you are calling X and Y.

In other words, what does a “system” that you are calling “X” consist of? Describe its literal features so that we can all have a better idea of exactly what it is you are referring to.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Now that we established the first step, we need to show that there are at least two minds involved in changes. The first mind is you. You experience, decide and cause certain things. How about the rest of changes that you experience or not experiences but you are not in charge of them? We already argue that a mind is needed for any change and you know that there are changes that you are not in charge of them.
Instead of offering-up vague allusions to that which your are calling “changes,” please name and describe a specific change that I am not in charge of?
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
**(make that the mind's self-aware “agent” doing the controlling.)
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Not all the control. There are other changes that they are not under your control.
Again, name and describe some specific changes that are not under my control?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Mind in fact has no structure and exist.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
Again, more nonsense.

The human mind is a highly structured phenomenon that is comprised of a central consciousness that is in possession of an infinitely malleable essence that the central consciousness (again, the abovementioned “agent”) can willfully shape into absolutely anything it can imagine.

In which case, how in the world can you claim that it has no structure?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Could you please tell me that what mind is made of?
If I had to speculate...

(which, of course, is precisely what we are all doing here - speculating)

...then I would suggest that mind and matter are two complementary aspects of the same fundamental essence, with both working together in tandem to produce what we call “reality.”

In other words, mind and matter are an inseparable amalgam of whatever it is that Spinoza was attempting to describe in his “oneness substance” theories, beyond which nothing else exists.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
1) Consciousness cannot emerge from something structured.
What are you talking about, bahman? Isn’t it obvious that consciousness can emerge from the highly structured context of a physical brain?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
2) Something structured cannot be free.
3) Something which is structured cannot cause.
I have already debunked 2 and 3 in my earlier rebuttal, here:
seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:39 pm
Your argument is constructed to support your personal assumption of why a “free agent cannot be created.”

However, I have given you a hypothetical scenario wherein God...

(a Being that you agreed is a “free agent” under the terms that I laid-out)

...is able to replicate itself, thus causing a new free agent (just like God) to come into existence.

In other words, with specific and structured knowledge (as is possessed by God), a free agent can indeed be created.

Therefore, your argument is thus refuted, period, full-stop.
You have simply chosen to ignore what I said because it refutes your assertions.
_______

Dubious
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Dubious » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 am

If it is it wouldn't be ours unless there's something very perverse going on in the universe! :lol:

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:07 pm

seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
Furthermore, other than the mind’s** control over the body’s musculature and thus its movements...

...whatever changes that are taking place with respect to the physical body are under the purview and guidance of the programming implicit within the body’s DNA structures and have nothing to do with the mind.
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
For this we need to agree that a mind is needed for any change. Here is the argument:
Consider a change in a system, X to Y. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X has to vanishes before Y is caused.
Wrong. Y is simply a transformation of X into Y.
Ok, let's analyze what transformation means. X causes Y. X however must exist to cause Y. This however requires that both X and Y to coexist which this is impossible.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
We have nothing once X is vanished...
But X never actually vanished, it was merely transformed into what you are now calling Y.
Transformation is not possible as it is argued.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
...and Y cannot be caused from nothing...
Y was not caused from nothing; Y is founded upon the pre-existence of what was once called X. In other words, without the pre-existence of X there could be no Y.
You see. You use the word pre-existence. That means that X has to vanishes in order to allow existence of Y otherwise you have both X and Y at the same point.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
...Therefore there must be a mind which is aware of X and causes Y.

This is first step so feel free to investigate and let me know what do you think.
Well, the first thing that I think is that your introduction of “mind” into the above argument is a brazen non-sequitur.
That is not a non-sequitur. The existence of mind is in fact is necessary otherwise you cannot get ride of problem.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am
And the second thing that I think is that you need to provide us with some actual examples of the “systems” that you are calling X and Y.
Every changes that you see around. Falling an apple for example.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am

In other words, what does a “system” that you are calling “X” consist of? Describe its literal features so that we can all have a better idea of exactly what it is you are referring to.
X is basically form of physical.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Now that we established the first step, we need to show that there are at least two minds involved in changes. The first mind is you. You experience, decide and cause certain things. How about the rest of changes that you experience or not experiences but you are not in charge of them? We already argue that a mind is needed for any change and you know that there are changes that you are not in charge of them.
Instead of offering-up vague allusions to that which your are calling “changes,” please name and describe a specific change that I am not in charge of?
All thing which are done with your unconscious mind. Unconscious however is a lousy word. It doesn't mean that the process is unconscious instead it means that it is unconscious to us.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
**(make that the mind's self-aware “agent” doing the controlling.)
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Not all the control. There are other changes that they are not under your control.
Again, name and describe some specific changes that are not under my control?
The process of your thoughts. All metabolism inside your body.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Mind in fact has no structure and exist.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
Again, more nonsense.

The human mind is a highly structured phenomenon that is comprised of a central consciousness that is in possession of an infinitely malleable essence that the central consciousness (again, the abovementioned “agent”) can willfully shape into absolutely anything it can imagine.

In which case, how in the world can you claim that it has no structure?
What your mind does in fact is very simple. Something comes into your mind, experience. You then decide what to do. You then cause and wait for the next income.That is all you do, experience, decision, and causation. These three things as I claimed can be shown that are abilities of mind.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
Could you please tell me that what mind is made of?
If I had to speculate...

(which, of course, is precisely what we are all doing here - speculating)

...then I would suggest that mind and matter are two complementary aspects of the same fundamental essence, with both working together in tandem to produce what we call “reality.”

In other words, mind and matter are an inseparable amalgam of whatever it is that Spinoza was attempting to describe in his “oneness substance” theories, beyond which nothing else exists.
Essence of what?
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
1) Consciousness cannot emerge from something structured.
What are you talking about, bahman? Isn’t it obvious that consciousness can emerge from the highly structured context of a physical brain?
No, it cannot. There is no such a thing as emergence. Basically particle physicists are trying to come up with theory of everything in which the behavior of everything is explained in term of behavior of parts, so called elementary particles. Standard theory to the best of my knowledge is an accurate model which explains reality very well.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 pm
2) Something structured cannot be free.
3) Something which is structured cannot cause.
I have already debunked 2 and 3 in my earlier rebuttal, here:
No, you didn't. You didn't also reply to -1-.
seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:39 pm
Your argument is constructed to support your personal assumption of why a “free agent cannot be created.”

However, I have given you a hypothetical scenario wherein God...

(a Being that you agreed is a “free agent” under the terms that I laid-out)

...is able to replicate itself, thus causing a new free agent (just like God) to come into existence.

In other words, with specific and structured knowledge (as is possessed by God), a free agent can indeed be created.

Therefore, your argument is thus refuted, period, full-stop.
That is just an opinion. You need to tell me what is wrong with my argument. You are not also providing an argument.

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:13 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:20 am
The pattern of matter which allows for mind does get annihilated. If my former self then nourishes a potato, which accepts the matter, that potato doesn't get any smarter for it.

Come on. Does anyone seriously believe there are eternal minds prancing around? Please, feel free to speculate and make shit up. But let's not entertain it as anything other than unlikely.

Simple solution? If you can't measure it, it probably doesn't exist, save for shits and giggles. And it really bugs me that I even have to repeat this point, over and over again.
Are you really arguing anything? I have my argument so face it. Tell me what is wrong with it.

Dalek Prime
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Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Dalek Prime » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:13 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:20 am
The pattern of matter which allows for mind does get annihilated. If my former self then nourishes a potato, which accepts the matter, that potato doesn't get any smarter for it.

Come on. Does anyone seriously believe there are eternal minds prancing around? Please, feel free to speculate and make shit up. But let's not entertain it as anything other than unlikely.

Simple solution? If you can't measure it, it probably doesn't exist, save for shits and giggles. And it really bugs me that I even have to repeat this point, over and over again.
Are you really arguing anything? I have my argument so face it. Tell me what is wrong with it.
Well, what's wrong with what I said exactly, aside from a little extra drama, which I add to spice things up for fun? The mind is not eternal, as I explained that the pattern was broken. You dont like that? So sue me.

Dubious
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Dubious » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:30 am

...and the mindless even more so! :lol:

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:15 am

bahman wrote:
Could you please tell me that what mind is made of ?

I ) Consciousness cannot emerge from something structured
2 ) Something structured cannot be free
3 ) Something which is structured cannot cause

I have an argument for each of these . But lets first see your answer to the question
Mind is not made of anything because it is not a thing as such but a function of a thing [ the brain ]

I ] Consciousness is a function of the brain and brains are structured [ they have physicality ]
2 ] Something structured cannot be entirely free but neither does it have to be entirely contained
3 ] Everything is in a constant state of motion / motion is cause / therefore everything creates cause

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:09 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:15 am
bahman wrote:
Could you please tell me that what mind is made of ?

I ) Consciousness cannot emerge from something structured
2 ) Something structured cannot be free
3 ) Something which is structured cannot cause

I have an argument for each of these . But lets first see your answer to the question
Mind is not made of anything because it is not a thing as such but a function of a thing [ the brain ]
Could you please define mind?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:15 am
I ] Consciousness is a function of the brain and brains are structured [ they have physicality ]
Consciousness is not a function. Consciousness is related to ability to experience. Why should we be able to experience? What is the purpose?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:15 am
2 ] Something structured cannot be entirely free but neither does it have to be entirely contained
No. Something which is contained could be free if we accept freedom of will. Basically a thing which is made of parts is free only if its part is free. Freedom in another word cannot exist in something structured where its parts are not free. I have an argument for existence of free will in here. This means that mind is free since mind is the fundamental entity in reality.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:15 am
3 ] Everything is in a constant state of motion / motion is cause / therefore everything creates cause
Yes, everything has a cause but you as a person are not in charge of cause in this case. You are just a part of chain of causality unless you are a mind.

By the way, what is your opinion about the OP?

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:13 pm

bahman wrote:
Consciousness is related to ability to experience . Why should we be able to experience ? What is the purpose ?
Experience is an ability common to all biological life forms like animals and plants
The most obvious reason for it from an evolutionary perspective is self preservation

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:18 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:13 pm
bahman wrote:
Consciousness is related to ability to experience . Why should we be able to experience ? What is the purpose ?
Experience is an ability common to all biological life forms like animals and plants
The most obvious reason for it from an evolutionary perspective is self preservation
You mean that consciousness has a functioning. Why this function is not performed in dark?

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