The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Eodnhoj7
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The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:25 pm

If there is no mind body problem, and they are effectively unified, the problem occurs as a result of any act of division where unity is distorted through measurement.

The problem occurs in the respect this distortion of the self (considering the mind body problem is an extension of the self) occurs through the self where the self instills a degree of separation or polarity within its nature by forming opposition.

This opposition of the self through the self as the self gives premise to an absence of structure as fundamentally being void. In simpler terms the question of the self, through the mind body dualism, is an expression of void as constituting the self.

Under these terms it is simultaneously problematic to expect a solution to the mind body problem considering this nature of "void" within the self that gives rise to the problem.

At most the mind/body dualism can be encapsulated through circular reasoning to maintain the problem considering the opposition of the mind and body are premised in void. A progressive linear approach to the problem will give an increase in definitive parts which form the mind and body, but this in itself leads to contradiction as the increase in definition leads to an increase in philosophical problems.

Effectively the mind body dualism necessitates a fracturing of the human condition, under standard logic geared towards the prevention of fallacies where the self that composes the problem is the very same self effectively being atomized so to speak.

The question of mind body dualism, under the terms of a dualistic approach, necessitates a form of atomism where the base limits of the self are reduced in many respects to continually dissolvable atoms of various definitions and sorts.

In a separate respect it reduces the mind and body effectively to point space considering the point is the only atomic definition that if continually divided maintains its same nature. Under this premise, we are left with basic geometric limits that composes the human condition of mind and body, with these foundations being the foundation of measurement, further implying that in this dualism the mind wins as all is mind and we cycle back to a form of unity under point space.

From a separate respect if the dualism is to continue with the prior premise of continual atomization where the mind and body are continually broken down to through further abstract and empirical definitions of what constitutes what, this progressive nature necessitates an element of time within the responses as all current answered become means to further answers and a continual probabilism occurs.

Under these terms this probabilistic nature to the mind body dualism, as evidenced by its continual dependence on time to redefine the answer, elevates the dualism to literally being a qualitative fraction where the abstract thought of the mind divides the potential unity of the empirical senses into relative parts and vice versa. This continual alternation of one as the premise which divides the other (considering the mind is some times determines to give definition to the body while the materialistic nature of the body gives rise to the mind) leaves an inherent cycling to the answer leading to the munchaussen dilemma considering the answers is literally one based in relativism.

Under these terms it can be argued that relativism is an extension of the very same "self" which addresses the problem of the "self". In these respects it may be argued that relativism, as a constant through this problem, is an inherent psychological law not limited to the realm of physics stemming from a problem of void within the psyche as void is where the "problem of problems" seems to arise as it gives foundation to opposition as absent of structure.

The mind/body dualism can be necessitated as an element of void within the psyche as an inherent element of continuous inversion. In these respects the self maintains an inversive element conducive to a problem of irrationality where a stable state of being effectively is divided and multiplied into further parts.

The mind body problem is strictly premised in the presocratic atomist schools where any perceivable unity would neccessitate a question of unity of the self and the environment around the self leading to a viewpoint similar to Parmenides.

The problem is structured according to how chooses to quantify the human condition, where this nature of quantity being inherent with the self and lending further questions to the nature of quantification and free will.

Davyboi
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Davyboi » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:42 am

Hi there, I kinda get what your saying, but surely as we grew and gained consciousness and lost the connection we have with our bodies..there must be a time down the evolution line that body and mind were one? Had the same goals? Or is that just primal instinct I am on about? Or is there just to much stimulus living in this modern environment for our minds to decipher that our brains haven't a chance to connect with our body? Survival mode? Surely our body is ours and functions to keep us alive, yet we are alien to our body's daily functions? Is that something we had to lose to gain consciousness?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:31 am

Davyboi wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:42 am
Hi there, I kinda get what your saying, but surely as we grew and gained consciousness and lost the connection we have with our bodies..there must be a time down the evolution line that body and mind were one? Had the same goals? Or is that just primal instinct I am on about? Or is there just to much stimulus living in this modern environment for our minds to decipher that our brains haven't a chance to connect with our body? Survival mode? Surely our body is ours and functions to keep us alive, yet we are alien to our body's daily functions? Is that something we had to lose to gain consciousness?
If all individual phenomenon exist as one, due to there division from other individual phenomenon which exist as one, all these multiple individual ones reflect approximately unity. This unity necessitates the body, mind and soul where not separate at some point considering all units are derived from a prior unity.

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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:35 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:25 pm
If there is no mind body problem, and they are effectively unified, the problem occurs as a result of any act of division where unity is distorted through measurement.
....
....
As usual you are beating around too many bushes.

You have to define the context of the issue, e.g. the common one as in;
Mind–body dualism, or mind–body duality, is a view in the philosophy of mind that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical,[1] or that the mind and body are distinct and separable.
..
Dualism is closely associated with the thought of René Descartes (1641), which holds that the mind is a nonphysical—and therefore, non-spatial—substance. Descartes clearly identified the mind with consciousness and self-awareness and distinguished this from the brain as the seat of intelligence.[6] Hence, he was the first to formulate the mind–body problem in the form in which it exists today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism
The idea of the mind as separate from the body arise from a defensive mechanism [psychological] in the fact of an existential threat, i.e. inevitable mortality.

This defensive mechanism triggers the idea of an independent mind from the body, i.e. a soul that can survive physical death, thus with adherence to certain belief the idea of eternal life can be promised to believers.

The solution to the issue of such dualism is to address the root causes, i.e. the psychology of the inherent defense mechanism.

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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:38 pm

One way to solve this: no mind - just body. Consciousness/mind is just an emergent property.
What exactly is it? Ontological question - don't care (it's turtles all the way down).

How does it work?
Generally. Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
Precisely. Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience

Plato would be proud :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:46 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:35 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:25 pm
If there is no mind body problem, and they are effectively unified, the problem occurs as a result of any act of division where unity is distorted through measurement.
....
....
As usual you are beating around too many bushes.

You have to define the context of the issue, e.g. the common one as in;
Mind–body dualism, or mind–body duality, is a view in the philosophy of mind that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical,[1] or that the mind and body are distinct and separable.
..
Dualism is closely associated with the thought of René Descartes (1641), which holds that the mind is a nonphysical—and therefore, non-spatial—substance. Descartes clearly identified the mind with consciousness and self-awareness and distinguished this from the brain as the seat of intelligence.[6] Hence, he was the first to formulate the mind–body problem in the form in which it exists today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism
The idea of the mind as separate from the body arise from a defensive mechanism [psychological] in the fact of an existential threat, i.e. inevitable mortality.

This defensive mechanism triggers the idea of an independent mind from the body, i.e. a soul that can survive physical death, thus with adherence to certain belief the idea of eternal life can be promised to believers.

The solution to the issue of such dualism is to address the root causes, i.e. the psychology of the inherent defense mechanism.
You keep arguing root sources, but when a root source is observed you are left arguing a continuum to further root causes and you look back to a defense mechanism you are left justifying infinitely.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:52 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:38 pm
One way to solve this: no mind - just body. Consciousness/mind is just an emergent property.
What exactly is it? Ontological question - don't care (it's turtles all the way down).

How does it work?
Generally. Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
Precisely. Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience

Plato would be proud :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or body is a lower framework of mind, a lower thought limited to certain laws. These laws are strictly a framework, with this framework as a repitition of certain qualities happening at a much slower rate.

Either way the argument becomes relativistic. Do you start with mind as the origin point, or the body?

At minimum this dualism of relative thesis/antithesis results in spirit as a center point with spirit, through emotion or "emote" acting as directed movement resulting in further directed movements.

Hence we are left with a triad, where the body mind dualism has no rational base for a solution unless argues as either synthesized or coming from one source.

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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:15 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:52 pm
Either way the argument becomes relativistic. Do you start with mind as the origin point, or the body?
Neither. I see the body as hardware and the mind as software - the interaction of the two making a holistic system.

It's roughly the model described by Rodney Brooks in "Elephants don't play chess".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_AI

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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:40 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:15 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:52 pm
Either way the argument becomes relativistic. Do you start with mind as the origin point, or the body?
Neither. I see the body as hardware and the mind as software - the interaction of the two making a holistic system.

It's roughly the model described by Rodney Brooks in "Elephants don't play chess".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_AI
And as both we are left with spirit as a synthesis, conducive as a driving force as emotion and intuition. The human constitution is triadic and Descartes dualism is solved by Hegelian sythesis with the solution reflecting prior interpretations of the human condition.

Descartes argument fails because it starts with a contradiction, opposing unities, as the foundation. He never solves this, along with the issues of the majority of Cartesian thinking.

TimeSeeker
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:52 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:40 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:15 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:52 pm
Either way the argument becomes relativistic. Do you start with mind as the origin point, or the body?
Neither. I see the body as hardware and the mind as software - the interaction of the two making a holistic system.

It's roughly the model described by Rodney Brooks in "Elephants don't play chess".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_AI
And as both we are left with spirit as a synthesis, conducive as a driving force as emotion and intuition. The human constitution is triadic and Descartes dualism is solved by Hegelian sythesis with the solution reflecting prior interpretations of the human condition.

Descartes argument fails because it starts with a contradiction, opposing unities, as the foundation. He never solves this, along with the issues of the majority of Cartesian thinking.
All arguments fail as per the Münchhausen trilemma and the is-ought gap cannot be bridged.

This leaves us in a peculiar void - nothing to start with and nowhere to go! The only way out of that philosophical ditch is pragmatism. Everything else is sophistry.

Either way - all metaphysical taxonomies lead to a final vocabulary ( a term coined by Rorty): The set of communicative beliefs whose contingency the bearer more or less ignores.

Even my taxonomy leads to contingencies (although - very rare nowadays). But I don't care enough to fix them anymore. More important things in life :)

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:15 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:52 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:40 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:15 pm

Neither. I see the body as hardware and the mind as software - the interaction of the two making a holistic system.

It's roughly the model described by Rodney Brooks in "Elephants don't play chess".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_AI
And as both we are left with spirit as a synthesis, conducive as a driving force as emotion and intuition. The human constitution is triadic and Descartes dualism is solved by Hegelian sythesis with the solution reflecting prior interpretations of the human condition.

Descartes argument fails because it starts with a contradiction, opposing unities, as the foundation. He never solves this, along with the issues of the majority of Cartesian thinking.
All arguments fail as per the Münchhausen trilemma and the is-ought gap cannot be bridged.

This leaves us in a peculiar void - nothing to start with and nowhere to go! The only way out of that philosophical ditch is pragmatism. Everything else is sophistry.

Either way - all metaphysical taxonomies lead to a final vocabulary ( a term coined by Rorty): The set of communicative beliefs whose contingency the bearer more or less ignores.

Even my taxonomy leads to contingencies (although - very rare nowadays). But I don't care enough to fix them anymore. More important things in life :)
Pragmatism falls in due course to the Münchhausen trilemma.

The trilemma is a fallacy, here is the thetical solution.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=24726&p=368221&hil ... ma#p368221

TimeSeeker
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:29 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:15 pm
Pragmatism falls in due course to the Münchhausen trilemma.
Only if you pre-suppose some "objective" success/failure criteria.

I am from the school of Protagoras/Perspectivism: Man is the measure of all things

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Greta
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Greta » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:44 pm

To start, since the head is part of the overall body, then mind and body are one. Fair enough.

However, the brain has very specific functions and the body most certainly has a sense of dualism, in that the torso's organs mostly cycle energy while the head's organ mostly cycles information.

The most fundamental function is respiration, which maintains a constant connection between internal organs and the environment. If you ever want proof that you are simply part of the environment, consider that the environment continues fine without you but you cannot survive for more than a few minutes without your environment.

Then there's digestion, the absorption of energy from other organisms to resist the constant encroach of entropy (ie. outside energies "biting away" at your contained energetic bundle).

Then there's reproduction, the capacity for an organism to grow and expand beyond its personal physical boundaries.

Then there's mentality, the ability to actively preserve, refine and maximise all of the above.

Then there's communality, the ability to spread mentalities, and so on.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:15 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:29 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:15 pm
Pragmatism falls in due course to the Münchhausen trilemma.
Only if you pre-suppose some "objective" success/failure criteria.

I am from the school of Protagoras/Perspectivism: Man is the measure of all things
Yes and measurement is creation with creation being an extension of man and existing through man acting as a self-imposed judgement.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Mind/Body Dualism as Distortive

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:20 pm

Greta wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:44 pm
To start, since the head is part of the overall body, then mind and body are one. Fair enough.

However, the brain has very specific functions and the body most certainly has a sense of dualism, in that the torso's organs mostly cycle energy while the head's organ mostly cycles information.

The most fundamental function is respiration, which maintains a constant connection between internal organs and the environment. If you ever want proof that you are simply part of the environment, consider that the environment continues fine without you but you cannot survive for more than a few minutes without your environment.

Then there's digestion, the absorption of energy from other organisms to resist the constant encroach of entropy (ie. outside energies "biting away" at your contained energetic bundle).

Then there's reproduction, the capacity for an organism to grow and expand beyond its personal physical boundaries.

Then there's mentality, the ability to actively preserve, refine and maximise all of the above.

Then there's communality, the ability to spread mentalities, and so on.
The synthesis of the dualism results in a triadic third element, in this case "spirit", that allows the dualism to be maintained. A continual opposition necessitates the opposition as a form of continual movement from which the dual natures stem. "Spirit" through "emotion" observes this:

"The Latin root word mot means “move.” This Latin root is the word origin of a large number of English vocabulary words, including motivation, remote, and emotion. The root word mot is easily recalled through the word motion, for motion is nothing but “moving” of some kind."
http://www.bing.com/search?q=latin+root ... 58D902D5E6

Descartes foundations are flawed in these respects as that ignore a center root cause while further ignoring the fact his argument must continually progress if it is to be rational.

No argument is rational unless it is self-referential, but this self-referentiality does not prohibit progress but rather acts as a foundation for it without contradiction.

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