Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by bahman » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:44 pm

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:21 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:20 pm


#3 is false, so is the conclusion. Causality is not "broken" because of #2, the chain of events may be replaced by another chain of events, but causality is still there.

This is new version of argument. Could I please know your opinion about this one?

1) Conscious decisions is the result of matter formation
2) The existence of conscious decision means that one can break causality chain
3) This is impossible within materialism framework
4) Therefore conscious decision is not the result of matter formation
#2 is false. The conscious decision just gets incorporated to the causality chain. I think you're confusing causality chain with deterministic causality chain.
Incorporated? I can agree with that but isn't a conscious decision something initiated?

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Noax
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by Noax » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:23 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:40 pm
I am afraid that I don't see how they could continue on. To me it seems that they are terminated at decision point.
...
We compare X and Y at decision point. x and y are different chains of causality related to X and Y respectively.
...
I don't agree that x becomes y. They are two different chains of causality.
It is fine that you think of things this way, but none of this contradicts materialism since it makes no references to materialistic concepts, most notably causality. You're making up something else and calling it a causal chain, but it bears no resemblance to the mathematical concept of causality.
You halt whenever X==Y. It could be short or could be long.
I'm sorry that you have this problem, but the least free-willed thing I can think of like a thermostat does not 'halt' when the temperature crosses a threshold and X==Y. You are making up nonsense. You model is just plain empirically falsified if it concludes this. Nothing halts on equal weight of options if it doesn't have this strange 'conscious decision' thing you are pushing.

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by Conde Lucanor » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:52 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:44 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:21 pm


This is new version of argument. Could I please know your opinion about this one?

1) Conscious decisions is the result of matter formation
2) The existence of conscious decision means that one can break causality chain
3) This is impossible within materialism framework
4) Therefore conscious decision is not the result of matter formation
#2 is false. The conscious decision just gets incorporated to the causality chain. I think you're confusing causality chain with deterministic causality chain.
Incorporated? I can agree with that but isn't a conscious decision something initiated?
By that you mean the initiation of a causality chain, but that also implies that there can be a decision without breaking a causality chain. So #2 is false again.

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bahman
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by bahman » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:26 pm

Noax wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:23 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:40 pm
I am afraid that I don't see how they could continue on. To me it seems that they are terminated at decision point.
...
We compare X and Y at decision point. x and y are different chains of causality related to X and Y respectively.
...
I don't agree that x becomes y. They are two different chains of causality.
It is fine that you think of things this way, but none of this contradicts materialism since it makes no references to materialistic concepts, most notably causality. You're making up something else and calling it a causal chain, but it bears no resemblance to the mathematical concept of causality.
Could we agree that there are two chains of causality before decision is made? Could we agree that there is only one chain of causality after decision is made?

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bahman
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by bahman » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:27 pm

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:52 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:44 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:39 pm


#2 is false. The conscious decision just gets incorporated to the causality chain. I think you're confusing causality chain with deterministic causality chain.
Incorporated? I can agree with that but isn't a conscious decision something initiated?
By that you mean the initiation of a causality chain, but that also implies that there can be a decision without breaking a causality chain. So #2 is false again.
Could we agree that there are at least two chains of causality before decision is made? Could we agree that there is only one chain of causality after decision is made?

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Noax
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by Noax » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:10 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:26 pm
Could we agree that there are two chains of causality before decision is made? Could we agree that there is only one chain of causality after decision is made?
No. Chains are not individual things with identities for separate purposes, options or acts. Every effect event is a function of a web of causes and every cause event affects a web of future states.
One may only take certain knowledge/observations into conscious account when making a conscious decision (not your definition), so the epistemological causal relationships might be considerably simpler than the relationships that material physics is talking about. I'm mostly talking about the epistemological causes, which can only be terminated by forgetting things so no decisions can be made based on them. That's why I find absurd your claim that you cross the street without the decision being based on knowledge of the observation of the traffic.

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bahman
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by bahman » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:58 pm

Noax wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:26 pm
Could we agree that there are two chains of causality before decision is made? Could we agree that there is only one chain of causality after decision is made?
No. Chains are not individual things with identities for separate purposes, options or acts. Every effect event is a function of a web of causes and every cause event affects a web of future states.
We all know about the process which happens in network made of neurons. The idea is that a mental state, thought for example, can arises from this process. This mental state however can be terminated or initiated. This means that all the processes, chains of causality, can be terminated or initiated as well.

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by Conde Lucanor » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:01 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:27 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:52 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:44 pm


Incorporated? I can agree with that but isn't a conscious decision something initiated?
By that you mean the initiation of a causality chain, but that also implies that there can be a decision without breaking a causality chain. So #2 is false again.
Could we agree that there are at least two chains of causality before decision is made? Could we agree that there is only one chain of causality after decision is made?
No, all chains of causality open up new chains of causality after arriving to a point where new decisions, dependent of the previous one, allow for new multiple paths. There are many instances of decisions along each path.

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bahman
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Re: Consciousness is not the result of matter formation

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:21 pm

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:01 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:27 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:52 am

By that you mean the initiation of a causality chain, but that also implies that there can be a decision without breaking a causality chain. So #2 is false again.
Could we agree that there are at least two chains of causality before decision is made? Could we agree that there is only one chain of causality after decision is made?
No, all chains of causality open up new chains of causality after arriving to a point where new decisions, dependent of the previous one, allow for new multiple paths. There are many instances of decisions along each path.
Yes, you described it better than I did.

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