Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:23 am

Dontaskme wrote:... So You can't know 'another' is conscious, ...
Sure you can. Hear that language you are talking and thinking in, can't have it without there being an other conscious being other than you.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:13 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:23 am
Dontaskme wrote:... So You can't know 'another' is conscious, ...
Sure you can. Hear that language you are talking and thinking in, can't have it without there being an other conscious being other than you.


Consciousness doesn't know it's conscious. That would require it to split in two, into the knower and the known. It only becomes known on reflection.
Consciousness is not two, it's indivisible. Consciousness is like a mirror that cannot see itself, it can only reflect it self as other, it's same self.
And in order for the mirror to be able to reflect, it has to be empty so that it's reflection is seen. Consciousness therefore, is empty fullness.
The worls that appears outside of you is your mirror.

The belief in another consciousness is because there is a belief in your consciousness. No 'thing' has consciousness, there is only consciousness which is not a thing. There is no need for a belief in consciousness. Consciousness is without doubt or error. Any belief would just be an appearance within consciousness, a belief would be no thing. Consciousness and the contents of consciousness are not outside of consciousness. Consciousness is the boundless infinite container of everything...aka itself which is no thing.


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Arising_uk
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:24 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Consciousness doesn't know it's conscious. ...
Not heard of self-consciousness then?
That would require it to split in two, into the knower and the known. ...
Exactly but it needs memory.
It only becomes known on reflection. ...
In other words, memory.
Consciousness is not two, it's indivisible. ...
True and there are lots of them.
Consciousness is like a mirror that cannot see itself, it can only reflect it self as other, it's same self. ...
True, it can have memory and a language and create an 'other' to reflect itself and others.
And in order for the mirror to be able to reflect, it has to be empty so that it's reflection is seen. ...
Mirrors aren't empty?
Consciousness therefore, is empty fullness. ...
Or full emptiness. :roll:
The worls that appears outside of you is your mirror. ...
In what sense?
The belief in another consciousness is because there is a belief in your consciousness. ...
Hear that language you are talking and thinking in? That lets you know that there is a consciousness out there other than your own. As a single consciousness could not develop and would not need such a thing.
No 'thing' has consciousness, there is only consciousness which is not a thing. ...
Depends what you call a 'thing', are you a thing?
There is no need for a belief in consciousness. ...
Who believes in consciousness? I know I'm conscious and that's called being self-conscious.
Consciousness is without doubt or error. ...
About what? But I agree, it is without doubt or error that I am.
Any belief would just be an appearance within consciousness, a belief would be no thing. ...
No, it'd be a belief.
Consciousness and the contents of consciousness are not outside of consciousness. ...
Well dur! But the external world and other consciousnesses certainly are.
Consciousness is the boundless infinite container of everything...aka itself which is no thing.
Just a metaphysical assumption that the noumena is 'conscious' and as such has as much veracity as the world existing due to little pink and black fairies or even a 'God'.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm

As soon as you propose a procedure to differentiate "true" from "false" consciousness - you have invented a litmus test.

The problem is whether the 'false' consciousness can learn from its mistakes and adapt to pass the test in future, or worse yet - fail the test intentionally.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:50 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:24 pm
But the external world and other consciousnesses certainly are.
Other consciousnesses?

Explain?

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am

Ate you a consciouness? As I am.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:57 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am
Ate you a consciouness? As I am.
If we are both consciousness, then consciousness is a verb.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:08 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am
Ate you a consciouness? As I am.
Suppose that I am not. Then what?

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:02 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:Suppose that I am not. Then what?
For me? Then nothing. For you, confusion I'd guess but maybe not.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:04 pm

Dontaskme wrote: If we are both consciousness, then consciousness is a verb.
Well words can be both verbs and nouns so it's a noun when it names itself or another and a verb when it or another is doing the process.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:07 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:02 pm
For me? Then nothing. For you, confusion I'd guess but maybe not.
Great! That's two hypotheses right there. Confusion or no-confusion. 1 bit of uncertainty.

So if you can determine whether I am confused or not-confused then you ought to determine if I am conscious (like you)? Or am I misunderstanding your causal claim?

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:05 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Revisiting the age old question:
I am conscious, but how can I know for sure, that others are too?

How can we tell?

What would you consider to be evidence of consciousness?
There is no consciousness as most usually think of it. What is commonly called consciousness all life on planet earth shares to varying degrees. That one type organism has greater faculties than another is of no real consequence in terms of the existence of consciousness. Consciousness is simply all our sensors, stored experiences, and choosing between them, so as to ensure continuance, as it all comes together, such that the limited amount of free will we have, can be employed.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:41 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:Great! That's two hypotheses right there. Confusion or no-confusion. 1 bit of uncertainty. ...
Not really, it's just a statement that I think that if I was you and thought that I wasn't conscious I'd find certain things a bit confusing but like I said maybe not.
So if you can determine whether I am confused or not-confused then you ought to determine if I am conscious (like you)?
I don't think it's up to me to determine if you think you are conscious or not?
Or am I misunderstanding your causal claim?
Maybe, my claim is that if one is thinking and speaking in this language then one can safely assert that there is at least one other consciousness than oneself as I don't think such a language could be created by a singular consciousness.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:41 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:Great! That's two hypotheses right there. Confusion or no-confusion. 1 bit of uncertainty. ...
Not really, it's just a statement that I think that if I was you and thought that I wasn't conscious I'd find certain things a bit confusing but like I said maybe not.
So if you can determine whether I am confused or not-confused then you ought to determine if I am conscious (like you)?
I don't think it's up to me to determine if you think you are conscious or not?
Or am I misunderstanding your causal claim?
Maybe, my claim is that if one is thinking and speaking in this language then one can safely assert that there is at least one other consciousness than oneself as I don't think such a language could be created by a singular consciousness.
That is a false dichotomy you know. Two different consciousness could still find a common language to communicate in.

For example chimpanzees and gorillas can speak sign language to humans.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:11 am

TimeSeeker wrote:That is a false dichotomy you know. ...
You'd have to explain how?
Two different consciousness could still find a common language to communicate in. ...
How does that alter my claim as there are two consciousnesses and my claim is that if one is speaking and thinking in a language then one can know that there is another consciousness other than one's self as one consciousness cannot invent a language as why would it need to?
For example chimpanzees and gorillas can speak sign language to humans.
See above.

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