Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Sat May 19, 2018 8:00 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:37 am
bahman wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm
I don't think we can point to a Scientific case where there is Qualia with no Neural Activity, but I'm not convinced that Qualia can't be autonomous.
I think that is mind which is autonomous.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm
Not sure what the second question is asking.
Sorry I should have said "If no, why could not we consider it as an affection to mind?". I hope that makes sense right now.
The origin of the Conscious Mind is unknown but it looks like it is spawned from the Physical Mind early on in development. The Conscious Mind is connected to the Physical Mind. The Conscious Mind is a further processing stage after Physical Mind (Brain) processing. Because the Conscious Mind is a further processing stage it gets its input from the Physical Mind. The Qualia exists in the Conscious Mind, not in the Physical Mind. When Neural Activity happens in the Physical Mind the Inter Mind Detects it and converts it into the Qualia that the Conscious Mind can process.
The conscious experience/qualia is the result of exciting mind by matter activity.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat May 19, 2018 8:50 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:00 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:37 am
bahman wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm


I think that is mind which is autonomous.



Sorry I should have said "If no, why could not we consider it as an affection to mind?". I hope that makes sense right now.
The origin of the Conscious Mind is unknown but it looks like it is spawned from the Physical Mind early on in development. The Conscious Mind is connected to the Physical Mind. The Conscious Mind is a further processing stage after Physical Mind (Brain) processing. Because the Conscious Mind is a further processing stage it gets its input from the Physical Mind. The Qualia exists in the Conscious Mind, not in the Physical Mind. When Neural Activity happens in the Physical Mind the Inter Mind Detects it and converts it into the Qualia that the Conscious Mind can process.
The conscious experience/qualia is the result of exciting mind by matter activity.
Yes but how does exciting Mind by Matter Activity result in the Experience/Qualia? We have known for a hundred years that Neural Activity results in Conscious Experiences. The Explanatory Gap and the Hard Problem of Consciousness, is Explaining how this happens. Everyone just says it happens with no Explanation.

gaffo
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by gaffo » Sun May 20, 2018 11:04 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am

I don't see how we can ever say anything at all without some kind of faith
I agree - i must have - though an athiest - have "Faith" others exist.

though logic in and of itself does not provide.

via logic others do not exist, just persception of them via within my "mind" they show "themselves".

be they separate from me or just me talking to me.

BTW they - per my existance - they are still me (even granting you exist as an entity outside of me - per my "Faith" (for sanity's sake - not logic's) - talking to myself.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am


So we need some faith,
why?

for myself - personal sanity. but out of being a functional being, not out of conviction of Truth.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am
and once we start applying faith, solipsism quickly collapses as nonsense.
IMO - you are just me talking to myself (or vise versa if "you" insist -lol).

I see Faith as the house of cards, not Solipsism.

the latter is upheld by logic.

the former not so.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am
I also see no point in talking to solipsists; after all they think I'm just a part of their imagination.

yep, but i value imagination ;-).

I am an island sadly (as are all others - assuming there are others - from my perspective it is not relevant since my knowledge of "others" will always be via my "mind" anyway).

.............until my death in this realm.

the next (if there is another) - I'll leave out of my concern since my current limited nature does not allow me to know of.

thanks for reply (even if to myself?).

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Wed May 23, 2018 2:46 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:50 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:00 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:37 am

The origin of the Conscious Mind is unknown but it looks like it is spawned from the Physical Mind early on in development. The Conscious Mind is connected to the Physical Mind. The Conscious Mind is a further processing stage after Physical Mind (Brain) processing. Because the Conscious Mind is a further processing stage it gets its input from the Physical Mind. The Qualia exists in the Conscious Mind, not in the Physical Mind. When Neural Activity happens in the Physical Mind the Inter Mind Detects it and converts it into the Qualia that the Conscious Mind can process.
The conscious experience/qualia is the result of exciting mind by matter activity.
Yes but how does exciting Mind by Matter Activity result in the Experience/Qualia? We have known for a hundred years that Neural Activity results in Conscious Experiences. The Explanatory Gap and the Hard Problem of Consciousness, is Explaining how this happens. Everyone just says it happens with no Explanation.
I don't know how. I might be able to create Qualia if I know.

commonsense
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:11 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:17 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:03 pm
Why would anyone who takes this idea seriously be posting on a public forum?
Well, it's not that crazy. So, please humor me :wink:
This thread is the litmus test, right? You're taking a chance that the contributers have consciousness, aren't you? :lol:

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by QuantumT » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:52 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:11 pm
This thread is the litmus test, right? You're taking a chance that the contributers have consciousness, aren't you? :lol:
As to say: Helloooo? Anybody recieving this for real?

It was not my original intention, but I can certainly see your point!

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by commonsense » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:34 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am
I don't see how we can ever say anything at all without some kind of faith
Faith is all you need.
Faith is both necessary and sufficient for the belief that other consciousnesses exist. There is no proof, no logical explanation, no empirical evidence, unless there is a valid litmus test. No one here has been able to definitively assert a valid litmus test per se.
gaffo wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:04 pm
I agree - i must have - though an athiest - have "Faith" others exist.
though logic in and of itself does not provide.
via logic others do not exist, just persception of them via within my "mind" they show "themselves".
Logic just cannot prove the existence of others. It does not prove that others do not exist. Absence of proof is not the same as proof of absence. Via logic, lack of proof “proves” (trivially) that others may exist or others may not exist (by law of the excluded middle, if you’re interested).
Atla wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am
So we need some faith,
gaffo wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:04 pm
why?
for myself - personal sanity. but out of being a functional being, not out of conviction of Truth.
Why? Because logic proves nothing. If you’re going to believe, you have to have faith. Insanity is a separate issue. One can be insane whether others exist or not. If others exist, sanity will be judged against the thoughts and behaviors of others. If other consciences do not exist, the measure of sanity is obviously yours alone.

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QuantumT
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by QuantumT » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:45 pm

I guess it's a matter of trust

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yYchgX1fMw

gaffo
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by gaffo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:29 am

commonsense wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:34 pm


Logic just cannot prove the existence of others. It does not prove that others do not exist.

yep
commonsense wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:34 pm
Why?

to function without despair.

commonsense wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:34 pm
Because logic proves nothing.

near nothing.

it provides "i exist right now"

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by commonsense » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:04 pm

...but isn't "I exist right now" an assumption rather than a conclusion?

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by gaffo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:10 pm

commonsense wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:04 pm
...but isn't "I exist right now" an assumption rather than a conclusion?
nope. its Truth right now in this moment.

i make no conclusions from it.

for to make a conclusion is to assume i've exist in the future - next 10 seconds, next day, next yr/ etc...........

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Greylorn Ell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:54 am

QuantumT wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Revisiting the age old question:
I am conscious, but how can I know for sure, that others are too?

How can we tell?

What would you consider to be evidence of consciousness?
Superficial levels of consciousness can be identified in some animals, such as dolphins who can clearly recognize themselves in mirrors. However, not all dolphins can do this.

People are so dreadfully confused about the nature of consciousness that billions of them believe that their stupid dogs are conscious, nevermind that dogs in front of a mirror will look behind the mirror for the dog they see.

Consciousness is mistakenly conflated with intelligence. The two are not the same, as politicians and religious leaders throughout the world consistently demonstrate. It is possible to behave intelligently without an iota of consciousness. Example: IBM's chess playing computers and other AI developments.

Further confusing the issue: It is possible to be conscious by a variety of accepted standards, yet have an I.Q. of 60, as many contributors to this forum demonstrate.

Determining true consciousness requires three steps:
  • A theory describing, in physical and analytical terms, a mechanism that might be capable of becoming conscious.

    In the interest of credibility, such a theory might also explain the origin of such a mechanism, and (if applicable) its purpose or place within the universe we are in the process of discovering. But this is not essential to your question. For your purposes, a description of mechanism will do the job.

    "Mechanism" is a poor choice of word, for it implies a complex device made from many parts by an intelligent and implicitly conscious entity. (e.g. the God-created soul.) Imagine a simpler concept, a "thing" without any specific form that we could define in geometrical terms-- a geometrically amorphous entity. (We have no words for such a thing, except "spirit," cluttered with religious and fuzzhead connotations.)

    My term for this thing is simply "BEON." I'll use that term. But however one might name it, the component of consciousness must have certain definable physical properties that can be detected by suitably engineered physical instruments.
    .
  • A small but extremely intelligent (and conscious) group of people who decide that the theory is worth investigating.
    .
  • An experiment carefully designed to investigate the possibilities described by the theory. Religionists might regard this as an experimental attempt to detect the "soul," which by their definition of soul is impossible. Someone who has read Descartes (who developed analytical geometry and the Cartesian coordinate system that provided the basis for Newton's and Leibniz' version of calculus, a mathematical scheme capable of describing changes in the motion of physical objects) will recall that Descartes regarded the soul as a definable (and God-created) component of the human mind that is connected to the brain via the pineal gland.

    Although Descartes' essentially religious concept of soul is not correct, he appears to be the first to consider that the connection of soul to brain involved a biological and therefore physical component. Following this seemingly obvious insight made well ahead of his time, our experiment must treat the source of consciousness as something independent from the human brain, yet interconnected. (e.g. car and driver).
    • Greylorn

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:54 am

bahman wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:46 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:50 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:00 pm


The conscious experience/qualia is the result of exciting mind by matter activity.
Yes but how does exciting Mind by Matter Activity result in the Experience/Qualia? We have known for a hundred years that Neural Activity results in Conscious Experiences. The Explanatory Gap and the Hard Problem of Consciousness, is Explaining how this happens. Everyone just says it happens with no Explanation.
I don't know how. I might be able to create Qualia if I know.
No 'knower' was ever created.

.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:30 am

QuantumT wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Revisiting the age old question:
I am conscious, but how can I know for sure, that others are too?

How can we tell?

What would you consider to be evidence of consciousness?
The evidence is self shining. It's this herenow nowhere. There is nowhere else outside of herenow nowhere. The one who demands the evidence of what's already self shining does not exist outside of this arena.

So You can't know 'another' is conscious, you can only know 'you' are conscious... and the only reason you know you are conscious is because there is the appearance of 'other' that is only and ever sourced in you alone.

And You wouldn't ever know you are conscious without the idea of 'other' ...the 'other' is not outside of you, it's in you.



You cannot step outside of your consciousness to know another consciousness no more than a tooth can bite itself, or an eyeball can look at itself.

That other consciousnesses exist separate from yours, is an idea born from your own consciousness. It is believed that 'others' have consciousness too only because you have consciousness. However, the consciousness that is believed to exist in 'another' is the same consciousness that is in you, because it is you that has created the 'other' with your consciousness, and in the same moment, the 'other' has created your consciousness.
Consciousness is self creating instantaneously. No other thing created consciousness, it's self lighting. Self combusting. Like the flame of fire.

The fire is ignited when two surfaces rub together to cause friction. When awareness knows sensation, consciousness is born. the unborn born. The unmoved mover.

Right herenow nowhere is the uncreated created.
The unborn born.
The unknown knower.
The invisible visible.

etc etc etc...aka NON-DUALITY.


.

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Duncan Butlin
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Duncan Butlin » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:17 am

Bahman --- A truly conscious entity will occasionally blame himself rather than the other.

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