Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:49 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:11 am
You'd have to explain how?
1. I don't know what consciousness is. The very thread's name is 'Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?'. We don't have one and without such a test I don't know how to assert whether I am conscious or not.
2. You claim to be a consciousness. Clearly you had some inclusionary/positive and exclusionary/negative criteria (a test!) by which you asserted that you are a consciousness. Colloquially - it seems you know what consciousness is.
Are you a consciouness? As I am.
3. Because I don't know what consciousness is I can't determine if I am one; and I certainly can't determine if I am a consciousness LIKE YOU. One problem at a time, lets determine if I am conscious first, then we can compare your consciousness to my consciousness.

And so I am trying to copy the knowledge/test for consciousness (since you claim to have it) from your mind and into mine.

Your first claim was:
Arising_uk wrote: Maybe, my claim is that if one is thinking and speaking in this language then one can safely assert that there is at least one other consciousness than oneself as I don't think such a language could be created by a singular consciousness.
I do not need to create a language to speak it. I can simply adopt yours e.g learn (like babies do) so I gave you gorillas/chimpanzees learning to speak sign language as evidence. I could have also used Artificial intelligence/chatbot as an example. Machine learning.

But you tightened up the criteria from "learning/speaking" to "inventing" language:
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:11 am
How does that alter my claim as there are two consciousnesses and my claim is that if one is speaking and thinking in a language then one can know that there is another consciousness other than one's self as one consciousness cannot invent a language as why would it need to?
I can't find the original paper now, so a news article will have to do of the Facebook AI inventing its own language: https://www.newsweek.com/2017/08/18/ai- ... 46944.html

Why would it do that? Optimisation/efficiency. Language is a tool for communication. The language we (humans) gave it wasn't optimal enough for its goals and so it invented a better one.

I still don't know what your criteria for consciousness are, but I can say this with reasonable degree of certainty:
* Humans can create AND learn languages
* Artificial intelligences can create AND learn languages
* Therefore chatbots/AI can communicate with humans

Does this mean that artificial intelligence is conscious?
Does this mean that humans are conscious?
Does this mean artificial intelligence is conscious like humans are conscious?

And we are back at the OP: Could we make a litmus test for consciousness?

You still haven't produced your test for your own consciousness.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:09 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:04 pm
Dontaskme wrote: If we are both consciousness, then consciousness is a verb.
Well words can be both verbs and nouns so it's a noun when it names itself or another and a verb when it or another is doing the process.
Consciousness is this ever present aware empty space of being presence. The named being doesn't exist in and of itself. Names are just conceptual appearances in this already here empty space of being...words belong to the time bound realm of coming and going.

Consciousness is not time bound, it's timeless, it is the permanance of reality, it never appears. Consciousness is not inside a time-bound body. A body is inside of timeless consciousness. The outlines and shapes of bodies make consciousness appear fractalised, but this is an illusion, there is nothing separating anything in reality, it's totally one, and seamless.

.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:02 pm

Ah! My apologies, I wasn't directly addressing the OP with my post but a subset of the discussion which claims there is only one consciousness anywhere and that even if we were that one consciousness we cannot know that there are others. Having said that I'll try to engage with your thoughts about the OP and what I've said.
TimeSeeker wrote:1. I don't know what consciousness is. The very thread's name is 'Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?'. We don't have one and without such a test I don't know how to assert whether I am conscious or not. ...
I think there are two things here, consciousness and self-consciousness that people often conflate, the other animals appear to be conscious in the sense that they are aware of and act within an external world to achieve certain goals and we and some of the others(maybe) have an extra feature that allows us to know that we are conscious, i.e. a sense of 'I' or Descartes 'I am' or a sense of identity if you like. The litmus test is the assertion and that it is a contradiction to assert 'I am not' but whether there is such a thing as a 'true consciousness' I have no idea.
2. You claim to be a consciousness. Clearly you had some inclusionary/positive and exclusionary/negative criteria (a test!) by which you asserted that you are a consciousness. Colloquially - it seems you know what consciousness is. ...
I'm not sure what it is other than being a body with senses, memory and language in an external world.
3. Because I don't know what consciousness is I can't determine if I am one; and I certainly can't determine if I am a consciousness LIKE YOU. ...
Does it matter? If you can't determine you are a consciousness(in the sense of a self-consciousness) then that is immaterial to me but if you wish to assert you aren't then I wonder who is doing the assertion?
One problem at a time, lets determine if I am conscious first, then we can compare your consciousness to my consciousness.

And so I am trying to copy the knowledge/test for consciousness (since you claim to have it) from your mind and into mine. ...
See if you can doubt that 'I am'?
I do not need to create a language to speak it. I can simply adopt yours e.g learn (like babies do) so I gave you gorillas/chimpanzees learning to speak sign language as evidence. I could have also used Artificial intelligence/chatbot as an example. Machine learning. ...
All of which need two. Like I said, my post was about those who make the metaphysical claim that there is only one substance and it is conscious, they call themselves non-dualists and are basically a form of monist idealism mixed-up with bits of Eastern and Asian religions.
I can't find the original paper now, so a news article will have to do of the Facebook AI inventing its own language: https://www.newsweek.com/2017/08/18/ai- ... 46944.html ...
Again, it takes two.
Why would it do that? Optimisation/efficiency. Language is a tool for communication. The language we (humans) gave it wasn't optimal enough for its goals and so it invented a better one. ...
It took two.
I still don't know what your criteria for consciousness are, but I can say this with reasonable degree of certainty:
* Humans can create AND learn languages
* Artificial intelligences can create AND learn languages
* Therefore chatbots/AI can communicate with humans ...
None of those by their lonesome can.
Does this mean that artificial intelligence is conscious?
Does this mean that humans are conscious?
Does this mean artificial intelligence is conscious like humans are conscious?
Do these things have a sense of self-identity that they then assert to others in pursuit of their goals? If so then I'll have to provisionally consider them self-conscious like myself.
And we are back at the OP: Could we make a litmus test for consciousness? ...
I think not other than the thing itself asserting itself to others.
You still haven't produced your test for your own consciousness.
See above.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:37 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:02 pm
If you can't determine you are a consciousness(in the sense of a self-consciousness) then that is immaterial to me but if you wish to assert you aren't then I wonder who is doing the assertion?
Being conscious you are conscious is mind activity, and aspect of consciousness.

Asserting you are a consciousness(in the sense of a self-consciousness) is the same one who is asserting is it not consciousness.

Consciousness has to be before any assertions can be made. It's the primary source creator.

Consciousness is latent, within which knowledge of itself is born via the mind as self conscious. Conscious of being conscious.

Who is conscious of itself is consciousness. It's a reciprocal relationship. The unknown known non-identified non-dual reality.

When consciousness becomes aware of itself, all things are added, this is known as knowledge. No one knows knowledge.

Knowledge informs the illusory nature of being.


There is no such thing as a nondualist, or a religious person, these are all labels attached by the mind of knowledge, they are appearances, experiences, illusions within you, but not you. You are consciousness.

.


.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:50 pm

It may take two to tango, but it's the same one in the other. Just as a reflection is inseparable from the mirror.

Self is not individual, self is whole, the whole is individualised. Self is the whole Universe, this Universe subdivided itself infinitely into individualised portions, each individualised portions has all the fundamental principles and characteristic of the whole, therefore the most minute particle that you have encountered has all the main characteristics of the whole Universe. Self=Being=Mind.The whole Universe is a seamless living being.

Only Language separates the whole, language is of the mind, the realm of knowing within the not-knowing, and the mind that separates is like a pair of scissors, it can cut reality into two parts, but cannot be used to make those halves whole. The mind has to be in abeyance to see the whole, and to see that the mind is within the whole inclusive of the whole, and therefore an illusion.

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