Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Ginkgo
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Ginkgo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:47 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:56 am
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Also, I have no idea and not sure if the brain has an actual "Spot" in the brain where the neurons come into the Exact configuration that our eyes receive, ie. a "Tv screen" of the conscious mind. I remember Daniel Dennett saying that the "TV screen" existed, but I am not sure. I can't find it on google. This piece of information is crucial to the discussion.
I think this is what you were looking for:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

Dennett is saying that the Cartesian Theatre is a fallacy, consciousness is spread throughout the brain. In other words, there is no single spot in the brain where consciousness occurs.
Did Dennett prove this with science though.

Dennett is a philosopher not a scientist. Nonetheless, Dennett is just saying what science has known for a long time.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:56 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:47 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:56 am
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 am


I think this is what you were looking for:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

Dennett is saying that the Cartesian Theatre is a fallacy, consciousness is spread throughout the brain. In other words, there is no single spot in the brain where consciousness occurs.
Did Dennett prove this with science though.

Dennett is a philosopher not a scientist. Nonetheless, Dennett is just saying what science has known for a long time.
So science can map, where consciousness is, in the brain?

Ginkgo
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Ginkgo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:56 am
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:47 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:56 am

Did Dennett prove this with science though.

Dennett is a philosopher not a scientist. Nonetheless, Dennett is just saying what science has known for a long time.
So science can map, where consciousness is, in the brain?
Yes, ever since the advent of the MIR machine.

thought addict
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by thought addict » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:22 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:47 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:56 am
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 am


I think this is what you were looking for:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

Dennett is saying that the Cartesian Theatre is a fallacy, consciousness is spread throughout the brain. In other words, there is no single spot in the brain where consciousness occurs.
Did Dennett prove this with science though.

Dennett is a philosopher not a scientist. Nonetheless, Dennett is just saying what science has known for a long time.
Yes but that's just showing that there's probably no single physical location where an image is experienced. Just because information about the image is appearing in numerous different physical places in the brain, doesn't mean all that information can't be experienced by a single, unified consciousness.

I also said in this thread viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21166&start=165 "neurons generally speaking don't care how they are laid out in space relative to one another. What matters is how the neurons are connected to one another. You can jumble up a bundle of wires without changing the function of the circuit they form."

Also, if a consciousness can be associated with one brain at a single point and another consciousness can be associated with someone else's brain at another single point, there's no physical reason why a single consciousness can't be associated with many different points in the brain at the same time.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:23 pm

Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:56 am
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:47 am



Dennett is a philosopher not a scientist. Nonetheless, Dennett is just saying what science has known for a long time.
So science can map, where consciousness is, in the brain?
Yes, ever since the advent of the MIR machine.
It's MRI not MIR.
And MRI's don't prove jack shit about where consciousness is in the brain.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:18 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:39 am
Ok so the sad thing is, people get old, the older they get the uglier they get, meat-eaters make themselves look ugly with all the meaty testosterone.

Now whats interesting about this, is the spiritual connections. Isn't it strange that As the brain gets older, we lose passion and interest in life? Like think about it like this...The more you do an activity, the more memory you have being overrun by the activity, and you get sick of the activity. Like if you eat spaghetti every day, you will Lose interest in Spaghetti. And isn't it weird how the "you" (your spiritual consciousness) loses interest When the brain's memory patterns start to pile up? Like as if you are a critic of your own brain, saying "Hmm this brain is getting boring, I want a new one or a reset."

I think Dualism is real because, We are literally sitting inside 1 sense, the First Person Camera of our bodies. But touch and music is an entirely different sense that we are sitting around. There could be 500 senses, totally unfathomable. It's n-dimensional, incomprehensible until it is comprehended. Like our souls are compatible with these things, maybe.

So I think Dualism is real because, Our brain is a network of neurons. And yet all of these neurons are condensed into 1 thing, Us. Thus we cannot be the network of neurons, because there are millions of neurons, but only 1 us, therefore we are an Entity which is not our neurons.

Also, I have no idea and not sure if the brain has an actual "Spot" in the brain where the neurons come into the Exact configuration that our eyes receive, ie. a "Tv screen" of the conscious mind. I remember Daniel Dennett saying that the "TV screen" existed, but I am not sure. I can't find it on google. This piece of information is crucial to the discussion.

But I have a brand new thing no philosopher has ever thought of before. What if Reality is a total mess, total chaos, and its our Consciousness which gives order to space. Like the actual molecules are like wound up and random all over, and our neurons are seeing them all over just random scattered everywhere like viscious vines. But our Consciousness travels the random nuerons, picks and weeds them out and forms a picture of ordered space and ordered sense. ? Anyone thought of this before?
Here are my thoughts on the TV screen of the Conscious Mind:
I will talk about Conscious Light which is developed at http://theintermind.com

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. Let's call this Conscious Light Noise (CLN). It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located.

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are also painted onto your CLS. The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.

Dontaskme
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:26 pm

So science can map, where consciousness is, in the brain?
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 am
Yes, ever since the advent of the MIR machine.
Can a machine be a true representation of what consciousness is though?

If they could, that would make machines conscious...can you see the dilemma?

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:26 pm
So science can map, where consciousness is, in the brain?
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 am
Yes, ever since the advent of the MIR machine.
Can a machine be a true representation of what consciousness is though?

If they could, that would make machines conscious...can you see the dilemma?

.
Science can map the Neural Correlates of Consciousness in the Brain. Science has no idea how the actual Conscious experience happens.

Dontaskme
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:53 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:26 pm
So science can map, where consciousness is, in the brain?
Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 am
Yes, ever since the advent of the MIR machine.
Can a machine be a true representation of what consciousness is though?

If they could, that would make machines conscious...can you see the dilemma?

.
Science can map the Neural Correlates of Consciousness in the Brain. Science has no idea how the actual Conscious experience happens.
Steve, it's because consciousness cannot happen...it is the happening, one without a second...what would be the other consciousness if consciousness is already one without a second.. that would know how one without a second ever happens?

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:53 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:26 pm




Can a machine be a true representation of what consciousness is though?

If they could, that would make machines conscious...can you see the dilemma?

.
Science can map the Neural Correlates of Consciousness in the Brain. Science has no idea how the actual Conscious experience happens.
Steve, it's because consciousness cannot happen...it is the happening, one without a second...what would be the other consciousness if consciousness is already one without a second.. that would know how one without a second ever happens?

.
But an experience of Red can happen and then not happen for different Conscious Minds at different times and places. To me it still seems like there are multiple instances (billions or trillions) of independent Consciousness in the Universe. I'm still trying to figure out how to view all this as a single Mind.

Dontaskme
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 pm
But an experience of Red can happen and then not happen for different Conscious Minds at different times and places. To me it still seems like there are multiple instances (billions or trillions) of independent Consciousness in the Universe. I'm still trying to figure out how to view all this as a single Mind.
Consciousness aka no one has ever seen the colour red.

Colour is a known concept of consciousness that is without colour. Red is just the inseparable shadow play of invisible white light...it's an illusion.

“No one will find it by seeking yet only the seekers will find it.”

The concept of oneness aka consciousness is a sticky one for the dual mind to grasp.

.

Dontaskme
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:10 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 pm
But an experience of Red can happen and then not happen for different Conscious Minds at different times and places.
Nothing ever happens, but happening does apparently appear within the nothing happening. Infinity cannot happen, and yet infinity contains every happenstance infinitely...within itself.

There is the belief that because YOU are conscious ...''others'' are conscious too, but that belief arises only because YOU are conscious, yours being experientially self-evident.
The consciousness in ''another'' is the same consciousness that is you, and is the same consciousness that is in a dog or a cat or any living creature.
The proof of that revelation that it's all the same one consciousness...is the impossibility of you being able to step outside of your own conscious experience to enter another assumed consciousness. Multiple consciousness are the grand illusion of the senses..the great hall of mirrors known by the awakened ones, the sages...aka consciousness itself, the mind can know itself.

Image

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 pm
To me it still seems like there are multiple instances (billions or trillions) of independent Consciousness in the Universe.
The amazing thing is...there are apparently multiple consciousness as there are sentient things seen.....but the separation is an illusion in that there is no thing seen separate from the seer.. any thing seen belongs to the same one looker, it's all the same looker looking at the many facets of itself....one without a second appearing as multiplicity...all facets share the same one consciousness..albeit living totally different and unique experiences, in that they are all existing simultaneously within the same one space that pervades them all. HERE NOW - NOWHERE.
It's the divine paradox.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:10 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 pm
But an experience of Red can happen and then not happen for different Conscious Minds at different times and places.
Nothing ever happens, but happening does apparently appear within the nothing happening. Infinity cannot happen, and yet infinity contains every happenstance infinitely...within itself.

There is the belief that because YOU are conscious ...''others'' are conscious too, but that belief arises only because YOU are conscious, yours being experientially self-evident.
The consciousness in ''another'' is the same consciousness that is you, and is the same consciousness that is in a dog or a cat or any living creature.
The proof of that revelation that it's all the same one consciousness...is the impossibility of you being able to step outside of your own conscious experience to enter another assumed consciousness. Multiple consciousness are the grand illusion of the senses..the great hall of mirrors known by the awakened ones, the sages...aka consciousness itself, the mind can know itself.

Image

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 pm
To me it still seems like there are multiple instances (billions or trillions) of independent Consciousness in the Universe.
The amazing thing is...there are apparently multiple consciousness as there are sentient things seen.....but the separation is an illusion in that there is no thing seen separate from the seer.. any thing seen belongs to the same one looker, it's all the same looker looking at the many facets of itself....one without a second appearing as multiplicity...all facets share the same one consciousness..albeit living totally different and unique experiences, in that they are all existing simultaneously within the same one space that pervades them all. HERE NOW - NOWHERE.
It's the divine paradox.

.
I still don't get the Oneness thing. All I can do is to keep working on it.

Dontaskme
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:08 pm
I still don't get the Oneness thing. All I can do is to keep working on it.
I know Steve, it took me 20 years before I finally got it, all to suddenly realise that getting it was knowing there was nothing to get.

It made this one here see that life really is worth the price of admission.

Some never get this in their entire life time, no matter how hard they try. But it makes no difference to the one, it's all the play of the one..getting it, or not getting it..makes no diff to the one...the one is always and ever okay and safely home at all times.

She has your back.

She is Love.

She, the pet name for the nameless one .. :D :wink:

.

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