Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:39 pm

There is a Neo-Platonic text that talks about intelligence knowing itself directly, runs counter to much of Platonism, but ummm.... technically some aspects of the mind can observe itself due to weird feedback loops in the mind. You can observe yourself thinking for certain personality types.

But don't think tricked is rational or stable enough to qualify as a INTP, so gonna have to say in general he can't. But a few here probably can.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:47 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:39 pm
There is a Neo-Platonic text that talks about intelligence knowing itself directly, runs counter to much of Platonism, but ummm.... technically some aspects of the mind can observe itself due to weird feedback loops in the mind. You can observe yourself thinking for certain personality types.

But don't think tricked is rational or stable enough to qualify as a INTP, so gonna have to say in general he can't. But a few here probably can.
What do you mean observe yourself thinking? Do you mean have thoughts?
Lots of people have thoughts, this is not new or revolutionary what you're saying.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:49 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:33 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:31 pm
I dont want to be special, I just want to be loved!

I would rather someone think the same as I do than be the only island who thinks these thoughts.
That is a very honest and lovable answer. :D
Thankyou. :oops:

surreptitious57
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:05 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
surreptitious57 post wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
So I think Dualism is real
Which type of dualism since there is more than one. Cartesian dualism is definitely not real as the mind cannot exist outside of the body
Substance dualism treats them as separate but from within the body. Property dualism treats the mental as an emergent property of the
physical and is the only one that is actually true. The standard definition of physical is too restrictive and should incorporate the mental
as well rather than treat it as something separate from it as is usually the case
But your mind exists outside of my body
Your mind exists inside of your body the same as everyone elses and that is all that matters here and nothing else
You cannot go outside of your mind because mind is a function of the brain and consciousness cannot survive death
Once you are dead you are dead forever and although you believe in reincarnation you have no evidence for it at all
This is why I accept death without reservation while you want to build a DNA machine that can make you live forever
I deal in science fact which is true whereas you deal in science fiction which is false and so we can never agree on this

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:07 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:05 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
surreptitious57 post wrote:

Which type of dualism since there is more than one. Cartesian dualism is definitely not real as the mind cannot exist outside of the body
Substance dualism treats them as separate but from within the body. Property dualism treats the mental as an emergent property of the
physical and is the only one that is actually true. The standard definition of physical is too restrictive and should incorporate the mental
as well rather than treat it as something separate from it as is usually the case
But your mind exists outside of my body
Your mind exists inside of your body the same as everyone elses and that is all that matters here and nothing else
You cannot go outside of your mind because mind is a function of the brain and consciousness cannot survive death
Once you are dead you are dead forever and although you believe in reincarnation you have no evidence for it at all
This is why I accept death without reservation while you want to build a DNA machine that can make you live forever
I deal in science fact which is true whereas you deal in science fiction which is false and so we can never agree on this
If consciousness does not survive death, then what is your consciousness right now? Does it exist? Do you have consciousness? If I die before you do, will that destroy your consciousness?

surreptitious57
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:58 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
If consciousness does not survive death then what is your consciousness right now?
Does it exist? Do you have consciousness? If I die before you do will that destroy your consciousness?
All these questions are silly. I have consciousness right now. For I am alive and so obviously it exists and
I have it. And no it will not be destroyed if you die before me. But when you do eventually die you shall
remain dead and free from all pain and suffering forever. So this is something for you to look forward to

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:17 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:58 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
If consciousness does not survive death then what is your consciousness right now?
Does it exist? Do you have consciousness? If I die before you do will that destroy your consciousness?
All these questions are silly. I have consciousness right now. For I am alive and so obviously it exists and
I have it. And no it will not be destroyed if you die before me. But when you do eventually die you shall
remain dead and free from all pain and suffering forever. So this is something for you to look forward to
Sounds like a religious fantasy to me.
If I die...how do I know I wont be born out of a vagina into some other body? Where is the paper, the document that tells me the gaurantee?

surreptitious57
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:43 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
If consciousness does not survive death then what is your consciousness right now?
Does it exist? Do you have consciousness? If I die before you do will that destroy your consciousness?
All these questions are silly. I have consciousness right now. For I am alive and so obviously it exists and
I have it. And no it will not be destroyed if you die before me. But when you do eventually die you shall
remain dead and free from all pain and suffering forever. So this is something for you to look forward to
Sounds like a religious fantasy to me
If I die how do I know I wont be born out of a vagina into some other
body? Where is the paper the document that tells me the guarantee?
Death is not a religious fantasy. Religion believes in the eternal soul. Something for which there is precisely
zero evidence. I do not do religion or fantasy. I do reality. And it says that permanent brain death is forever
and so that is what I go with. The only things which are thought to be infinite are photons. But nothing else

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:03 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:43 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:

All these questions are silly. I have consciousness right now. For I am alive and so obviously it exists and
I have it. And no it will not be destroyed if you die before me. But when you do eventually die you shall
remain dead and free from all pain and suffering forever. So this is something for you to look forward to
Sounds like a religious fantasy to me
If I die how do I know I wont be born out of a vagina into some other
body? Where is the paper the document that tells me the guarantee?
Death is not a religious fantasy. Religion believes in the eternal soul. Something for which there is precisely
zero evidence. I do not do religion or fantasy. I do reality. And it says that permanent brain death is forever
and so that is what I go with. The only things which are thought to be infinite are photons. But nothing else
Look right now, both me and you are conscious. Which means consciousness is persistent imbetween bodies.
Science knows next to nothing about the brain let alone soul.

surreptitious57
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:19 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Look right now both me and you are conscious. Which means consciousness is persistent in between bodies
Science knows next to nothing about the brain let alone soul
The existence of consciousness does not mean that it is persistent and there is no evidence to say that it is
Neuroscience and psychology do not know everything about the brain but knowledge will increase over time
Science cannot investigate the soul for it is not something physical and there is no evidence it exists anyway

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:51 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:19 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Look right now both me and you are conscious. Which means consciousness is persistent in between bodies
Science knows next to nothing about the brain let alone soul
The existence of consciousness does not mean that it is persistent and there is no evidence to say that it is
Neuroscience and psychology do not know everything about the brain but knowledge will increase over time
Science cannot investigate the soul for it is not something physical and there is no evidence it exists anyway
Look i was born without asking for no reason.
There is no evidence to suggest that it will not happen again.
It happened once for no reason it can happen again.
Preferably it will be in a new body and not on this planet. I want nothing more than neitzhce to be wrong and to never repeat my life again.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:59 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:58 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
If consciousness does not survive death then what is your consciousness right now?
Does it exist? Do you have consciousness? If I die before you do will that destroy your consciousness?
All these questions are silly. I have consciousness right now. For I am alive and so obviously it exists and
I have it. And no it will not be destroyed if you die before me. But when you do eventually die you shall
remain dead and free from all pain and suffering forever. So this is something for you to look forward to
I dunno, I have my doubts you actually have consciousness, you may be just a Cartesian Beast Machine, mimicking talking but lacking anything internal, a programmed mechanical man without a soul, nothing inside, who's existence rests completely on being observed. If someone fails to wind you up, you cease to be.

thought addict
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by thought addict » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:16 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:51 pm
Look i was born without asking for no reason.
There is no evidence to suggest that it will not happen again.
It happened once for no reason it can happen again.
You've hit the nail on the head there. I don't understand why more people don't realize this!

It doesn't matter whether knowledge is preserved after death (I don't really think it is) - in a different body and brain why would you even need it? On this planet life is constantly being created with minds. We cannot be aware of oblivion, all we can be aware of is being alive, so death is meaningless: life is probably all there is.
Last edited by thought addict on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

Ginkgo
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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by Ginkgo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Also, I have no idea and not sure if the brain has an actual "Spot" in the brain where the neurons come into the Exact configuration that our eyes receive, ie. a "Tv screen" of the conscious mind. I remember Daniel Dennett saying that the "TV screen" existed, but I am not sure. I can't find it on google. This piece of information is crucial to the discussion.
I think this is what you were looking for:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

Dennett is saying that the Cartesian Theatre is a fallacy, consciousness is spread throughout the brain. In other words, there is no single spot in the brain where consciousness occurs.

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Re: Trixie's Thread about Mind.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:56 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Also, I have no idea and not sure if the brain has an actual "Spot" in the brain where the neurons come into the Exact configuration that our eyes receive, ie. a "Tv screen" of the conscious mind. I remember Daniel Dennett saying that the "TV screen" existed, but I am not sure. I can't find it on google. This piece of information is crucial to the discussion.
I think this is what you were looking for:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

Dennett is saying that the Cartesian Theatre is a fallacy, consciousness is spread throughout the brain. In other words, there is no single spot in the brain where consciousness occurs.
Did Dennett prove this with science though.

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