The mind itself cannot know anything.

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:54 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Existence and non existence are time bound conceptual appearances and disappearances
Existence is not a concept and by its very nature cannot disappear. It is reality which is ALL THERE IS
It cannot be conceived out of existence. For how can existence not exist for this is simply impossible
The mind which is part of existence is therefore denying that it exists too and everything else as well

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:07 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 pm

Thought pre dates language as language is an invention while thought is a product of the mind so things can be perceived before they are named
The human mind is not required to validate the existence of anything that exists independent of it such as things that exist but are not known to
exist.

Things can be perceived before they are named only through there being a prior knowing of the thing already known(via memory aka past tense)
Otherwise, how would a thought be recognised or known? ...Cognition is immediate to Nondual Awareness as the the perceiver, the perception and the perceived in the same instant (NOW) when the unconscious awareness becomes conscious mind. The unconscious awareness is the knower, not the mind, the mind is the re-cogniser of what's already known.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:09 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:54 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Existence and non existence are time bound conceptual appearances and disappearances
Existence is not a concept and by its very nature cannot disappear. It is reality which is ALL THERE IS
It cannot be conceived out of existence. For how can existence not exist for this is simply impossible
The mind which is part of existence is therefore denying that it exists too and everything else as well
I meant existence of things.

Existence implies some thing existing. In which case are thoughts appearing and disappearing. Existing and not existing.

That in which existence of things appears and disappears is boundless eternal infinite space which does not appear or disappear which is not-a-thing. Space never not existed. It doesn't exist and yet it does only in relation to the conception of it, via language.

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The mind cannot deny it's own existence because it never existed except in it's conception already known by awareness which is not a concept.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:48 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 pm
The human mind is not required to validate the existence of anything that exists independent of it such as things that exist but are not known to
exist.
Everything is already known and is existing right now all at once. Else nothing would become known if it wasn't already known. The mind is known, it is the re-cogniser of all that is known by unborn formless awareness that always is.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 pm
for consciousness to have always existed as the scenery can exist without it.
The scene can exist without there being any conscious thought about it, sure, just like your body still exists in deep sleep when there is no conscious awareness of it being there...but in order for any thing to be known, there has to be something that is always present in which the knowing can arise, that presence is boundless unborn formless awareness which is present in both sleep and waking life.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 pm
It exists now but will eventually pass away and there may be no
more ever again. Or there might be. But it is not actually necessary
The no more ever again is the dream, dreams don't ever repeat exactly, but for any dream to appear and disappear there has to be an always present dreamer that does not appear or disappear....Basically, you are both the dreamer and the dream simultaneously. You are the dreaming awareness of the dream and the dreamt character in the dream, the dreamt character comes and goes in the dreamer, but the dreamer is unborn and therefore cannot die.

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In other words, there is here only awareness dreaming it is a human.

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surreptitious57
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:45 pm

So the human mind is part of the dream of consciousness although it may not know that. Now the problem with this concept is
that there is no reason for it to actually be true. And without a human mind there would not be any evidence that it existed as
a concept if nothing else. Anything that is mind dependent cannot be verified and I only accept what I actually know to be true

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:18 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:45 pm
So the human mind is part of the dream of consciousness although it may not know that. Now the problem with this concept is
that there is no reason for it to actually be true.
It's true and untrue, true in the sense it appears to be true as a dream appearance, and untrue in the sense that is it just a dream appearance.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:45 pm
And without a human mind there would not be any evidence that it existed as
a concept if nothing else. Anything that is mind dependent cannot be verified and I only accept what I actually know to be true
To know you exist is a mentally constructed I, it's an artificially created object appearing in no thing as some thing.

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To know some thing is to be aware of some thing. Aware of some thing is subject and object duality, it is subject objectifying itself as the dream of separation where there is none.

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The energy matter that has made up the human body has been around forever, no thing has ever been born, every thing is an appearance of itself which is energy, including the 'thoughts' I have been born, I have a body. NO THING knows this.

All knowledge is an illusion.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:28 pm

Nothing needs to prove itself, there’s just what is, there’s just what’s happening to no one and no thing. This is no thing happening.

Even the idea there is a person who knows stuff, who refutes and debunks stuff is nothing refuting and debunking...these experiences appear to happen, but nothing is behind any of it. It’s just what is, which is nothing appearing as everything.

The belief by a person knowing something is either right or wrong is an illusion, debunking what is believed to be wrong in favour for what is believed to be right is all fictional story made by the illusion of there being a knower. The knower is an illusion because the source of all knowledge is unknowable, a not knowing mystery that is life living itself.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:40 pm

The idea that there is a someone that can disprove or debunk a theory is nothing appearing as if there is a someone able to prove or disprove or debunk something. The whole thing is imagined by no one or thing.


Nothing is conscious. Consciousness is the sense that I exist, but no thing exists because existence is not a thing. A thing is a label put there by no thing, so although a labelled thing appears to be something, it’s nothing but imagination which is unknowable.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:56 pm

The idea that there are separate entities with their own consciousness is unprovable ...yet adamantly believed, for what can the mind do with nothing?

The mind therefore makes up a world of make belief just to make the nonsense of nothing into something. It’s all a trick the brain plays with itself. The brain artificially creates a world of duality, it’s not a person making their brain work. It works all by itself, creating a completely artificial fictional reality believed to be real, such is the power of this energetic aliveness. Nothing is being this power, and that in itself is the only power there is.

In other words nothing has any power over you because there is nothing in power and no you except the powerful idea there is which has no knowable source.

To know source one would have to step outside of oneself which is impossible.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:29 pm

daramantus wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:47 am
Dubious wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:50 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:13 am
In not-knowing anything.Everything is known.
...which must be the reason Socrates knew Everything since he always claimed he knew nothing. However for many it's too late not to know anything since they already know they know something not to speak of what they it is they already know. These types can never be thinkers, or philosophers since by knowing something they know nothing...BUT by not knowing anything they know Everything!

It's Tylenol time!
and who told you that nothing is everything? nothing is the opposite of everything, and everything is not really everything, because everything you know is not really everything, because others know differently other things that they say "everything", so it's relative. and quantitative AND pluralism, and etc..
There is nothing in reality that is in relationship with anything except in the dream of separation which is an artificially constructed idea of the mind which is also an artificially constructed concept, an appearance of nothing.


Life is, what life is is a mystery even to itself, but the mind does not like not knowing ..so it artificially invents a knower...the what is...is what is unavoidably so, but no one is making what is what it is....there is nothing being what is except what nothing aka the mind imposes upon it artificially via conceptual language that is uniquely human apparently, and is just how this energy has happened to appear....this energy has just happened to appear as a human entity that believes it is the doer and knower, which is all pure fiction appearing real. That’s just how energy plays, it can appear as just about anything it desires to make up.

Prior to any language, aka artificially created knowledge...there’s just silent unknowable is ness...aka nothing appearing as everything including the sense of separation apparently.


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bahman
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Re: The mind itself cannot know anything.

Post by bahman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:38 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:52 pm
'' The mind itself cannot know anything since it only comes about itself as a result of Consciousness acting through the insentient matter of the brain. The knowledge of some object 'arises' when the mind is impacted on by the object. But what is actually happening is that Consciousness, as the object, is manifesting to itself through the mind, which is itself also operating only by virtue of Consciousness. Thus, a good definition of knowledge is that it is the manifestation of Consciousness (to itself) through the mind. ''

'' The greatest of all delusions is the conviction that knowledge is not a delusion.''
There is no mind but only conscious state.

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