The Inter Mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:23 am

How can consciousness physically disconnect from a brain if it is not actually physical?
How can consciousness exist outside of a brain when a brain is required to activate it?

Dontaskme
Posts: 3823
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:07 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:23 am
How can consciousness physically disconnect from a brain if it is not actually physical?
How can consciousness exist outside of a brain when a brain is required to activate it?
It can't separate, nothing can disconnect from itself...there is no joining line between seer and seen, knower and known. Consciousness and Unconsciousness.Just as there is no dividing line between sleep and awake, night and day.

Steve and Y our Construct are just playing around with material words trying to find themselves in those words. It's like they are trying to out run the speed of happening reaching to be one step ahead of the game. The horizon cannot be crossed.

.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:37 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:29 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:08 am
My only realization is that Consciousness seems to be something that exists as a separate thing from the Physical Brain. It seems to be connected to the Brain in some way. I think that since it is something separate from the Brain that it might be able to exist after the Brain is gone. However, I don't see how that Consciousness can know anything about it's former Physical existence after separation from the Body. I think it would start a whole new mode of existence that we cannot know.
Steve, My belief is that what we think of as life, is actually death, so even death is no different than life. No one made up the concept of life and death, except sound heard as words. It always comes back to the same old question..how can something come from nothing...this simply cannot be answered. To reverse that and say how can nothing come from something is equally absurd.

Even if human beings created a robot machine capable of having consciousness, that is capable of being conscious of the colour red.

That will only prove that there is nothing that could ever be conscious. How can a biological mechanism such as the brain know how it functions, it can't know no more than the human that invented a conscious robot can know how it knows. Can a conscious robot know how it knows the colour red? It's just a robot at the end of the day?

The Biological and Mechanics of life are the same thing.

.
I would say because we want to know, it must be possible to know. I suspect that when we finally do know it will seem obvious.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:42 pm

Your Construct wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:34 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:08 am
My only realization is that Consciousness seems to be something that exists as a separate thing from the Physical Brain. It seems to be connected to the Brain in some way. I think that since it is something separate from the Brain that it might be able to exist after the Brain is gone. However, I don't see how that Consciousness can know anything about it's former Physical existence after separation from the Body. I think it would start a whole new mode of existence that we cannot know.
Hi SteveKlinko,

You have made a very interesting assertion. I've been thinking about it and I believe you are correct. If a physical body dies, the consciousness attached to that physical body would have to disconnect from it and start a whole new mode of existence. This makes a lot of sense to me. I do believe in reincarnation and this would be a good explanation of why, for the most part, we do not remember past lives. I would also conclude that awareness does not have memory, while consciousness does have memory.

Best Regards,
Your Construct
I'm not so sure Consciousness itself has memory. Seems like Consciousness uses the Brain for memory and the Brain goes away. It would be nice if it could be shown that Consciousness had some sort of memory.

User avatar
PauloL
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:12 pm
Location: Lisbon, Portugal.

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by PauloL » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:58 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:42 pm
I'm not so sure Consciousness itself has memory. Seems like Consciousness uses the Brain for memory and the Brain goes away. It would be nice if it could be shown that Consciousness had some sort of memory.
x...........................................................................................................................x




True. Consciousness depends on physical memories contained in brain, and I discuss it in another thread (link bellow).

Damasio tells about David, who lost the temporal lobes after an herpetic encephalitis, and all his memories and capacity to memorize washed away (except a 30-second working memory he uses in his everyday life). He's the greatest amnesia ever remembered, and yet he has a mind. I think David has not even a very limited memory, unless you call that his 30-second working memory, something that doesn't allow him to retain any memories.

He's courteous, smokes and enjoys beautiful women, but he can't know what happened 1 minute ago.

The physical nature of memories can't be denied from David's case. Neither the permanence of consciousness after all memories are lost, which grants that memories are a contingent part of consciousness, not a necessary part of it. More broadly, this also challenges personal continuity as necessary in the personal identity problem. Accordingly, a proposition like "memory is part of consciousness" can't be unconditionally true.

"[...] David is not a zombie. In terms of core consciousness, David is as conscious as you or I." In: Antonio Damasio. The Feeling of What Happens. Chapter 2.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22392#p320137




x...........................................................................................................................x
Last edited by PauloL on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:11 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:23 am
How can consciousness physically disconnect from a brain if it is not actually physical?
How can consciousness exist outside of a brain when a brain is required to activate it?
I know I say the following all the time but to me it is the pivotal argument.
All we know at this point is that, for example, take the Conscious experience of the Color Red:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens
2) The Experience of the Color Red happens

Science can not say how that Red experience happens when the Neural Activity happens. The Red seems to be some Conscious domain experience. If Red is something that can be explained by known Physics then what is it? Is it made out of Matter? Is it made out of Energy? Is it some aspect of Space?

It seems to be almost a new kind of Substance, although I don't like calling it a Substance. It is a Conscious Substance. It seems to exist outside of known Physics. Knowing this we are compelled to ponder the possibility that it might exist after the Physical Brain goes away. Knowing the connection that it had with the Brain it is difficult to say what the experience of the newly Hatched Conscious Mind will be like without the connection.

It is possible that without the distraction of being connected to a Brain the Conscious Mind will be freed up to communicate with other Conscious Minds in a whole new way. These Conscious Minds might use their already built in Conscious Light to communicate with other Conscious Minds. Also note that Conscious Sound is also a Conscious Substance that can not be explained by Science. Conscious Minds might also be able to send Conscious Sound messages. Also since Conscious Minds will probably be found to exist in some type of Conscious Space concept, maybe these Conscious Minds will be able to communicate across the Universe this way. Conscious Space might not have the limitations that Physical Space has.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:18 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:58 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:42 pm
I'm not so sure Consciousness itself has memory. Seems like Consciousness uses the Brain for memory and the Brain goes away. It would be nice if it could be shown that Consciousness had some sort of memory.
x...........................................................................................................................x




True. Consciousness depends on physical memories contained in brain, and I discuss it in another thread (link bellow).

Damasio tells about David, who lost the temporal lobes after an herpetic encephalitis, and all his memories and capacity to memorize washed away (except a 30-second working memory he uses in his everyday life). He's the greatest amnesia ever remembered, and yet he has a mind. I think David has not even a very limited memory, unless you call that his 30-second working memory, something that doesn't allow him to retain any memories.

He's courteous, smokes and enjoys beautiful women, but he can't know what happened 1 minute ago.

The physical nature of memories can't be denied from David's case. The permanence of consciousness after memory is lost grants that it's contingent part of consciousness, not a necessary part of it. Accordingly, a proposition like "memory is part of consciousness" can't be unconditionally true.

"[...] David is not a zombie. In terms of core consciousness, David is as conscious as you or I." In: Antonio Damasio. The Feeling of What Happens. Chapter 2.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22392#p320137




x...........................................................................................................................x
But we can not rule out that the Conscious Mind itself might have some other kind of Memory that we don't understand yet. I can propose these kinds of things because of our lack of understanding of Consciousness in general. I think however that we can say that Memory that is Brain based will be lost, unless there is some kind of image of it duplicated in the Conscious Mind.

User avatar
PauloL
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:12 pm
Location: Lisbon, Portugal.

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by PauloL » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:23 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:18 pm
But we can not rule out that the Conscious Mind itself might have some other kind of Memory that we don't understand yet. I can propose these kinds of things because of our lack of understanding of Consciousness in general. I think however that we can say that Memory that is Brain based will be lost, unless there is some kind of image of it duplicated in the Conscious Mind.
x...........................................................................................................................x




Steve:

Conscious mind possessing some kind of memory is an interesting point, but David doesn't corroborate that. Why didn't he keep such "conscious memory"? Or else, conceding he kept some kind of "conscious memory", that's not a biographical memory.




x...........................................................................................................................x

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:52 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Steve and Your Construct are just playing around with material words trying to find themselves in those words
It is like they are trying to out run the speed of happening reaching to be one step ahead of the game. The horizon cannot be crossed
This is true because from an internal perspective you can never be in the future only the present or the now. Of course relatively states that time
is not absolute but that still does not change the fact that you cannot out think your own thoughts. This is both physically and logically impossible
Time is external but your mind operates internally and absolutely so. And so you cannot therefore go out of it. You might expand it but cannot go
beyond that. To go out of your mind is a metaphorical statement not a literal one. What ever is happening external to you in relation to time and
space [ or spacetime to be more accurate ] does not alter the fact you can only experience the now and nothing else. Now science currently does not yet know if time is discrete or not but either way this will not actually affect how human beings [ or any conscious organism ] experience now

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:50 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
1 ) Neural Activity for Red happens
2 ) The Experience of the Color Red happens

Science can not say how that Red experience happens when the Neural Activity happens. The Red seems to be some
Conscious domain experience. If Red is something that can be explained by known Physics then what is it? Is it made
out of Matter? Is it made out of Energy? Is it some aspect of Space?

It seems to be almost a new kind of Substance although I do not like calling it a Substance. It is a Conscious Substance. It seems to
exist outside of known Physics. Knowing this we are compelled to ponder the possibility that it might exist after the Physical Brain
goes away. Knowing the connection that it had with the Brain it is difficult to say what the experience of the newly Hatched
Conscious Mind will be like without the connection
Just because science does not yet fully understand consciousness does not mean that it never will. Just because human minds can not currently provide a rational explanation for an experienced phenomenon does not mean one does not exist. It just means it has yet to be discovered. For
there has never been a potentially falsifiable non rational explanation for any experienced or observed phenomena which science has explored Either that phenomenon is fully understood from a scientific perspective or science is still investigating it. Therefore non rational explanations
for phenomena are no more than God Of The Gaps type logical fallacies and so have zero credibility. Science will eventually solve the mystery
of consciousness given enough time and energy. Because consciousness is a function of the brain. And the brain can be investigated by science

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:46 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:23 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:18 pm
But we can not rule out that the Conscious Mind itself might have some other kind of Memory that we don't understand yet. I can propose these kinds of things because of our lack of understanding of Consciousness in general. I think however that we can say that Memory that is Brain based will be lost, unless there is some kind of image of it duplicated in the Conscious Mind.
x...........................................................................................................................x




Steve:

Conscious mind possessing some kind of memory is an interesting point, but David doesn't corroborate that. Why didn't he keep such "conscious memory"? Or else, conceding he kept some kind of "conscious memory", that's not a biographical memory.




x...........................................................................................................................x
I don't think that if there is some sort of Conscious Memory that it will be a copy of the Physical Memory. Physical Memory is in the Physical domain and deals with Physical Space things, although the Conscious Mind can tap into that. Conscious Memory, if there is such a thing, is in Conscious Space and deals with Conscious Space things that we don't understand yet. I have always maintained that after separation of Conscious Mind from Physical Mind, that all knowledge of the Physical existence is lost. The Conscious Mind gets born into a new existence and will pursue new Conscious Space things. It is a type of reincarnation but you don't become another Physical Mind thing you become a Conscious Mind thing. It might be that the whole purpose of the Physical Mind is to nourish and grow a Conscious Mind that can operate in Conscious Space.

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:00 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:50 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
1 ) Neural Activity for Red happens
2 ) The Experience of the Color Red happens

Science can not say how that Red experience happens when the Neural Activity happens. The Red seems to be some
Conscious domain experience. If Red is something that can be explained by known Physics then what is it? Is it made
out of Matter? Is it made out of Energy? Is it some aspect of Space?

It seems to be almost a new kind of Substance although I do not like calling it a Substance. It is a Conscious Substance. It seems to
exist outside of known Physics. Knowing this we are compelled to ponder the possibility that it might exist after the Physical Brain
goes away. Knowing the connection that it had with the Brain it is difficult to say what the experience of the newly Hatched
Conscious Mind will be like without the connection
Just because science does not yet fully understand consciousness does not mean that it never will. Just because human minds can not currently provide a rational explanation for an experienced phenomenon does not mean one does not exist. It just means it has yet to be discovered. For
there has never been a potentially falsifiable non rational explanation for any experienced or observed phenomena which science has explored Either that phenomenon is fully understood from a scientific perspective or science is still investigating it. Therefore non rational explanations
for phenomena are no more than God Of The Gaps type logical fallacies and so have zero credibility. Science will eventually solve the mystery
of consciousness given enough time and energy. Because consciousness is a function of the brain. And the brain can be investigated by science
Very true. If Consciousness is found to be some undiscovered new principle, Science will take it in and call it Science someday. That will be true even if the new principle involves some sort of Conscious Space concept.

User avatar
PauloL
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:12 pm
Location: Lisbon, Portugal.

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by PauloL » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:46 pm
I don't think that if there is some sort of Conscious Memory that it will be a copy of the Physical Memory. Physical Memory is in the Physical domain and deals with Physical Space things, although the Conscious Mind can tap into that. Conscious Memory, if there is such a thing, is in Conscious Space and deals with Conscious Space things that we don't understand yet. I have always maintained that after separation of Conscious Mind from Physical Mind, that all knowledge of the Physical existence is lost. The Conscious Mind gets born into a new existence and will pursue new Conscious Space things. It is a type of reincarnation but you don't become another Physical Mind thing you become a Conscious Mind thing. It might be that the whole purpose of the Physical Mind is to nourish and grow a Conscious Mind that can operate in Conscious Space.
x...........................................................................................................................x




That's interesting and makes me recall a post from a member in another thread that read:
I once had a conversation with my father, and the conversation got around to Heaven. He said "someone told him that in Heaven we would spend all day worshiping God and singing God's praises." he then said "If that is what Heaven is, I don't think I want to go there." I should have pointed out that was just one persons idea of what Heaven was, and didn't apply to everyone, but I was a bit stunned and didn't know what to say at the time.
That is, even if there's a soul that can survive, maybe that's not so much interesting as people may think. Not that it will be spending all day worshiping God and singing praises, but still much less than that, even conceding reincarnation. In fact that residual self is in accord with neuroscientific data.





x...........................................................................................................................x

SteveKlinko
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:59 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:43 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:46 pm
I don't think that if there is some sort of Conscious Memory that it will be a copy of the Physical Memory. Physical Memory is in the Physical domain and deals with Physical Space things, although the Conscious Mind can tap into that. Conscious Memory, if there is such a thing, is in Conscious Space and deals with Conscious Space things that we don't understand yet. I have always maintained that after separation of Conscious Mind from Physical Mind, that all knowledge of the Physical existence is lost. The Conscious Mind gets born into a new existence and will pursue new Conscious Space things. It is a type of reincarnation but you don't become another Physical Mind thing you become a Conscious Mind thing. It might be that the whole purpose of the Physical Mind is to nourish and grow a Conscious Mind that can operate in Conscious Space.
x...........................................................................................................................x




That's interesting and makes me recall a post from a member in another thread that read:
I once had a conversation with my father, and the conversation got around to Heaven. He said "someone told him that in Heaven we would spend all day worshiping God and singing God's praises." he then said "If that is what Heaven is, I don't think I want to go there." I should have pointed out that was just one persons idea of what Heaven was, and didn't apply to everyone, but I was a bit stunned and didn't know what to say at the time.
That is, even if there's a soul that can survive, maybe that's not so much interesting as people may think. Not that it will be spending all day worshiping God and singing praises, but still much less than that, even conceding reincarnation. In fact that residual self is in accord with neuroscientific data.





x...........................................................................................................................x
I agree that what I say sounds like a Soul. But it is really quite different from the religious Soul which always seems to be a wispy transparent copy of the Physical being. I think the Conscious Mind could be a whole new existence when it is released from the control of the Brain. Scientists should not be afraid to pursue such things if the logic leads them there.

User avatar
PauloL
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:12 pm
Location: Lisbon, Portugal.

Re: The Inter Mind

Post by PauloL » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:03 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:59 pm
I agree that what I say sounds like a Soul. But it is really quite different from the religious Soul which always seems to be a wispy transparent copy of the Physical being. I think the Conscious Mind could be a whole new existence when it is released from the control of the Brain. Scientists should not be afraid to pursue such things if the logic leads them there.
x.............................................................................................................x




..................... True.
..................... The only problem is:
..................... Scientific data doesn't support pursuing such things,
..................... so logic doesn't lead them there.





x.............................................................................................................x

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest