The Inter Mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:10 am

The universe has not become consciously aware of itself rather one life form that is known of has become aware that it exists. But the universe
as such does not that know it exists. Nor it is known what the peak of intelligence in it is. Humans may or may not be it but it can not currently
be determined. Physical pertains to that which demonstrably exists. And I do not think the idea of reality as a mental construct invalidates this
Solipsism and idealism are not sound concepts for the universe existed long before [ human ] minds did as they are relatively new phenomenon

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:28 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:10 am
The universe has not become consciously aware of itself rather one life form that is known of has become aware that it exists. But the universe
as such does not that know it exists. Nor it is known what the peak of intelligence in it is. Humans may or may not be it but it can not currently
be determined. Physical pertains to that which demonstrably exists. And I do not think the idea of reality as a mental construct invalidates this
Solipsism and idealism are not sound concepts for the universe existed long before [ human ] minds did as they are relatively new phenomenon
The energy that is able to express the human idea [''And I do not think the idea of reality as a mental construct invalidates this
Solipsism and idealism are not sound concepts for the universe existed long before [ human ] minds did as they are relatively new phenomenon''
] as and through the human mind/brain/body mechanism ...had to be there, exist at the big Bang event, else how would the information that makes up the human expression have manifested at all?

Every piece of information that ever existed must have existed all at once in a state of possibility / superposition at the moment of big bang.
So the idea that a human mind is a new phenomena is a strange belief...in my opinion.

Because how can everything that was present at the big bang.. then be able to divide itself off and claim it's a new phenomena and that the universe existed long before the idea of a human mind did....it's got to be all interconnected? ..so this does not make sense to me.

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surreptitious57
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:51 am

The energy and mass that human beings are made from may have existed at the very beginning of the universe
But human beings them selves did not and these two facts are not at all contradictory. At least not to my mind

surreptitious57
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:01 am

And also if the universe had no beginning then every piece of information that has ever existed would not have existed all
at once in a state of possibility or superposition at the Big Bang for that would simply be one point on an infinite spectrum

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:09 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:51 am
The energy and mass that human beings are made from may have existed at the very beginning of the universe
But human beings them selves did not and these two facts are not at all contradictory. At least not to my mind
I don't believe there is such a thing as a human ...human is a known concept, no human has ever been seen to exist.
I believe consciousness is living life and consciousness is not human, consciousness knows the concept, but is itself without concept. Even the word consciousness is a concept..but here we only have conceptual language to point to that which is without knowledge. But is pure knowing itself.

This is what Steve speaks about when he says...''I think it is a kind of Conscious substance that we use to experience the world''
I too believe we are consciousness, in that every organism that lives and breathes is the same consciousness.
I know I am conscious. My consciousness is what experiences everything that I experience. I am aware that I cannot be anywhere but at centre of my own consciousness.And that is the same for every one else, including animals.

We're all just a single consciousness having an experience, and we're only aware of this experience one life at a time.

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This is what I intuitively know. Yet what is this consciousness that I am? And more broadly what is this consciousness we all experience?

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That is what Steve is trying to find out.

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And I support his ideas.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:14 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:01 am
And also if the universe had no beginning then every piece of information that has ever existed would not have existed all
at once in a state of possibility or superposition at the Big Bang for that would simply be one point on an infinite spectrum
Yes, but infinity can be both empty and fullness at the same time. Infinity is this immediate now, empty fullness expressing itself endlessly.

It's nothing and everything all at once.

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Beginnings and Endings don't apply to the constant flux of life...which is only ever happening Now.

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So it's a complete mystery, and man seeks to solve it, but I personally can't see that it can be solved, but I'm open to believing it can, like Steve.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:26 am

Emptiness and Infinity.

''Taking the larger view of Nature and its composite beauty, it can be seen that the five elements of space, air, fire, water and earth are foundational to the entire physical world. These same aggregates comprise all forms, animate and inanimate; in human beings these elements flow like a river multiplying into tributaries of form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. Thus to be, is to inter-be, integrated vertically and horizontally in the vast ocean of emptiness stretching infinitely into grand void.

Nothing, therefore, exists in isolation. But everything exists in emptiness. An empirical statement that an object is empty, must mean that it is empty of something. A cup of water is said to be empty by divesting it of its content. Yet in its deemed emptiness, it is still holding air and the sum total of its constituents rendering its form. Hence to say an object is empty is merely to mean it is empty of a separate, independent existence, yet sustaining in its interconnect with everything else. It is only empty of a separate self or beingness, which means it is full of everything. Likewise form is empty of a separate self but full of everything in the cosmos. Form, therefore, is emptiness, and emptiness is form as exemplified by the waves in the sea which are forms caused by play of wind and ocean currents on water and existing in the emptiness of water permeating it all, in just the same way as Universal consciousness permeates all inter-beings. Even the tiniest speck of dust is a portal to the divine, as, if it does not exist, the entire cosmos becomes non-existent and vice versa.''

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The Big Bang, is just a larger version of a life force giving birth to itself as a whole universe...synonymous to a mouse giving birth to another mouse on a smaller scale.


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surreptitious57
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:33 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Beginnings and Endings dont apply to the constant flux of life
Existence has no beginning or end because it is eternal. But human existence is not eternal for it does have
a beginning and an end. Though death is no more than a transition from consciousness to non consciousness

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:51 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:33 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Beginnings and Endings dont apply to the constant flux of life
Existence has no beginning or end because it is eternal. But human existence is not eternal for it does have
a beginning and an end. Though death is no more than a transition from consciousness to non consciousness
The human existence is a fragmented thought of the whole existence. Thoughts come and go in that which eternally exists as this immediate eternal unbroken whole. So this viewpoint proposes that within each of the fragment of consciousness (thought) the whole is contained. That container must be the non-consciousness you are referring to?

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surreptitious57
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Beginnings and Endings dont apply to the constant flux of life
Existence has no beginning or end because it is eternal. But human existence is not eternal for it does have
a beginning and an end. Though death is no more than a transition from consciousness to non consciousness
The human existence is a fragmented thought of the whole existence. Thoughts come and go in that which eternally exists as this
immediate eternal unbroken whole. So this viewpoint proposes that within each of the fragment of consciousness ( thought ) the
whole is contained. That container must be the non-consciousness you are referring to
Everything exists but for me I see two distinct types of existence. There is life or consciousness and there is death or non consciousness
Life is temporary and death is eternal. I think the distinction is not as profound as we think it is. I think it is a transition between states
I think we make it profound because we fear what we do not know. I do not know but I am no longer afraid. For I am as free as I can be

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:23 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:48 pm


Everything exists but for me I see two distinct types of existence. There is life or consciousness and there is death or non consciousness
Life is temporary and death is eternal. I think the distinction is not as profound as we think it is. I think it is a transition between states
I think we make it profound because we fear what we do not know. I do not know but I am no longer afraid. For I am as free as I can be
We cannot know death. Life and death are known through language. Life and death is not an experience. Language is the only thing alive. Stop playing with words and what is there here? ..there's just ''what is''

There's just here. That's all, that's it, this is it. Everything else is language. Consciousness or Awareness is just another word...just more language. All we seem to do is play around with our words until we die trying to get our language to arrive somewhere, but we already are here. How do we reverse engineer the experience of being here now non-linguistically? We can't reverse engineer ourselves in the middle of being ourselves.

Steve likes to think we can, the only way I can support him through that belief is to show him there is no him separate from the artificially created language. Language is not biological...it's a recording. Biology is the real stuff...and even biology is born of language.

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SteveKlinko
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:58 pm

wtf wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:30 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:44 pm
The whole motivation for what I say comes from looking at what Science says about Consciousness. Scientists are determined to prove that Consciousness is an illusion created by the Brain. They say quite arrogantly that there is nothing but the material Brain.
Isn't this a little strawman-ish? I'm sure SOME scientists are arrogant, and SOME scientists say that consciousness is a function of the brain (and if it's not, what is it?) And SOME scientists say that consciousness is an illusion.

But not all scientists say those things. So which windmill are you tilting at?
I say this after trying to understand Consciousness by studying what Science says about it. I have found that all the things that Science says is centered on the belief that it has to be all about the physical operation of the Brain. When they say its just an Illusion they are defending the all in the Brain belief when you read into how they get to that conclusion. You say if it's not a function of the Brain then what is it? That's the same question I ask but I take a Conscious experience like the experience of the color Red and ask what is Red? I understand Red as a separate thing that exists in the universe. But what is it? Is it made out of matter? Is it made out of Energy? Is it made out of some aspect of Space? You cant say what it is made out of because it would appear that it is some other kind of thing than we can find in Science. It certainly is a Conscious experience. But what is it?

SteveKlinko
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:08 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:16 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:44 pm

I think it is a kind of Conscious substance that we use to experience the world.
Steve, thanks for your reply.

Is this what you mean by a separate Conscious aspect of mind...>

Each of us occupies not only the physical body we see, but a second or spiritual body. This latter will continue to contain us after physical death?
Do you believe we have an eternal self that experiences itself as a temporal self? Do you believe that Eternity and Existence must be distinguished as two separate entities?

I kind of get a sense that this is what could be possible anyway...if consciousness does exist, then it either is eternally existing permanently, or, it is just as temporal as the material body?

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:44 pm
So in particular what I mean in that statement is that I think something like Red is something that exists as a separate thing and is experienced by a separate Conscious aspect of the Mind. I hope I have made some good arguments to support that in The Inter Mind.
My only realization is that Consciousness seems to be something that exists as a separate thing from the Physical Brain. It seems to be connected to the Brain in some way. I think that since it is something separate from the Brain that it might be able to exist after the Brain is gone. However, I don't see how that Consciousness can know anything about it's former Physical existence after separation from the Body. I think it would start a whole new mode of existence that we cannot know.

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:29 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:08 am
My only realization is that Consciousness seems to be something that exists as a separate thing from the Physical Brain. It seems to be connected to the Brain in some way. I think that since it is something separate from the Brain that it might be able to exist after the Brain is gone. However, I don't see how that Consciousness can know anything about it's former Physical existence after separation from the Body. I think it would start a whole new mode of existence that we cannot know.
Steve, My belief is that what we think of as life, is actually death, so even death is no different than life. No one made up the concept of life and death, except sound heard as words. It always comes back to the same old question..how can something come from nothing...this simply cannot be answered. To reverse that and say how can nothing come from something is equally absurd.

Even if human beings created a robot machine capable of having consciousness, that is capable of being conscious of the colour red.

That will only prove that there is nothing that could ever be conscious. How can a biological mechanism such as the brain know how it functions, it can't know no more than the human that invented a conscious robot can know how it knows. Can a conscious robot know how it knows the colour red? It's just a robot at the end of the day?

The Biological and Mechanics of life are the same thing.

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Your Construct
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Your Construct » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:34 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:08 am
My only realization is that Consciousness seems to be something that exists as a separate thing from the Physical Brain. It seems to be connected to the Brain in some way. I think that since it is something separate from the Brain that it might be able to exist after the Brain is gone. However, I don't see how that Consciousness can know anything about it's former Physical existence after separation from the Body. I think it would start a whole new mode of existence that we cannot know.
Hi SteveKlinko,

You have made a very interesting assertion. I've been thinking about it and I believe you are correct. If a physical body dies, the consciousness attached to that physical body would have to disconnect from it and start a whole new mode of existence. This makes a lot of sense to me. I do believe in reincarnation and this would be a good explanation of why, for the most part, we do not remember past lives. I would also conclude that awareness does not have memory, while consciousness does have memory.

Best Regards,
Your Construct

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