The Inter Mind

[Dontaskme]

You should have nipped it in the bud straight after your first thought.

Is it possible to stop a thought coming?

More to the point can you stop shit from pouring out your arse or mouth?

[SteveKlinko]

My conclusion that everything is made out of Empty Space came very logically and simply from the fact that certain Energies and Particles can spontaneously just appear out of Empty Space. What can this mean except that these Energies and Particle are made out of Empty Space.

But space that is not empty already contains Energies and Particle, why cannot "everything" be made out of these?

Of course if the Space you are talking about already always has Energy and particles you can't logically say that anything comes out of Empty Space. But in certain experiments in Quantum Physics the measurements show that Particles can come out of Empty Space. The Particles usually recombine and disappear back into Space within femtoseconds. I think I remember that it was some kind of unstable Quark pair that appears. I don't remember much more than that. I don't know how they knew it was true Empty Space. But that is the reality of the findings.

[Harbal]

But in certain experiments in Quantum Physics the measurements show that Particles can come out of Empty Space.

So I've heard but unless they can show that all particles come out of empty space it can't really be said that everything comes out of empty space, can it?

[SteveKlinko]

My conclusion that everything is made out of Empty Space came very logically and simply from the fact that certain Energies and Particles can spontaneously just appear out of Empty Space. What can this mean except that these Energies and Particle are made out of Empty Space.

Thanks Steve.
For me, the desire to seek and study Nondual philosophy happened spontaneously when one day while walking through some woodland near my home a thought suddenly came to my mind..I was about 7 years old. The thought went like this...who I am looking at all these trees and hearing birds singing and feeling the suns heat on my skin.. how is this happening, where have all these things come from and who is looking at them, what am I feeling and sensing this amazing place?

Then, another thought came a little while after that thought that tried to imagine the opposite ..which was to try and vision absolute total silent blank black nothingness. At that moment I realised who I was, the dual nature of existence made it's appearance as and through the aware thoughts. I realised that Both polarities had to exist and that they were the same THING.

That's why I like your analogy saying that space is a THING.

This was my argument when I engaged in many discussions with other Nondual posters on a Nonduality forum...they argued space is not a thing, it is that in which things arise. I counter argued this over and over there could be no such thing as no thing that could be known for if it were known it would be a thing known. So there is no way that space cannot not be a thing.

Most people intuitively believe that there is a 3D background Space extending out to infinity in 6 different directions. They think it is always there and that it is a basic reality. They think that if you remove all the Energy and Matter from the Universe then there is nothing remaining. But their intuition is wrong because the empty Space can actually be removed resulting in Absolute Nothing. This is a mind boggling thing to try to understand and I still struggle to understand it. But my argument for it is that Scientists have said that at the moment of the Big Bang that the parameters of any new Universe get set. The Dimension of the Universe is one of those parameters. So there is some Scientific backing, although very theoretical, for the reality of Universes with different dimensions. This also means that the Big Bang did not explode or expand into an existing background 3D Space but rather the Big Bang created the Space that the Universe is made out of. The Big Bang actually supposes Absolute Nothingness before the Big Bang. So I think the fact that Space can be 2D, 3D, 4D etc. means that Space must be a thing and this has pretty good Scientific backing.

[SteveKlinko]

But in certain experiments in Quantum Physics the measurements show that Particles can come out of Empty Space.

So I've heard but unless they can show that all particles come out of empty space it can't really be said that everything comes out of empty space, can it?

If some particles can come out of Empty Space then all Particles could have come out of Empty Space is also a possibility.

[Dontaskme]

You say space that is not empty..then you say the word ''contains''

That's because I am used to things that are not empty containing something.

So are you saying that container and it's contents are one vessel?

[Harbal]

If some particles can come out of Empty Space then all Particles could have come out of Empty Space is also a possibility.

So your conclusion that everything comes out of empty space is only based on a possibility?

[Dontaskme]

Most people intuitively believe that there is a 3D background Space extending out to infinity in 6 different directions. They think it is always there and that it is a basic reality. They think that if you remove all the Energy and Matter from the Universe then there is nothing remaining. But their intuition is wrong because the empty Space can actually be removed resulting in Absolute Nothing. This is a mind boggling thing to try to understand and I still struggle to understand it. But my argument for it is that Scientists have said that at the moment of the Big Bang that the parameters of any new Universe get set. The Dimension of the Universe is one of those parameters. So there is some Scientific backing, although very theoretical, for the reality of Universes with different dimensions. This also means that the Big Bang did not explode or expand into an existing background 3D Space but rather the Big Bang created the Space that the Universe is made out of. The Big Bang actually supposes Absolute Nothingness before the Big Bang. So I think the fact that Space can be 2D, 3D, 4D etc. means that Space must be a thing and this has pretty good Scientific backing.

Thanks Steve. I really love the simplicity of your writing style. I'm just a simple mind, so thanks for not over complicating this.
I'll be back later to reply to some of your comments, but for now I'm just going to muse over your ideas and try to absorb them fully before I respond.

[Harbal]

So are you saying that container and it's contents are one vessel?

I don't think I said anything about a vessel.

[SteveKlinko]

If some particles can come out of Empty Space then all Particles could have come out of Empty Space is also a possibility.

So your conclusion that everything comes out of empty space is only based on a possibility?

Of course, we can't know anything for sure in this early stage of our understanding of these things.

[Harbal]

Of course, we can't know anything for sure in this early stage of our understanding of these things.

Perhaps you should wait until we do know before you come to a conclusion.

[SteveKlinko]

If some particles can come out of Empty Space then all Particles could have come out of Empty Space is also a possibility.

So your conclusion that everything comes out of empty space is only based on a possibility?

Just want to point out that I am not saying that the Particles just come out of Empty Space. I am saying that the Particles are made out of Empty Space. So if some Particles truly are made out of Empty Space and if everything else is made out of these elementary Particles then all Matter must be made out of Empty Space.

[SteveKlinko]

Of course, we can't know anything for sure in this early stage of our understanding of these things.

Perhaps you should wait until we do know before you come to a conclusion.

So we should never talk about possibilities in Philosophy? Philosophy is all about possibilities.

[Harbal]

Just want to point out that I am not saying that the Particles just come out of Empty Space. I am saying that the Particles are made out of Empty Space. So if some Particles truly are made out of Empty Space and if everything else is made out of these elementary Particles then all Matter must be made out of Empty Space.

You still need to get rid of the ifs.

So we should never talk about possibilities in Philosophy?

You presented your "conclusion" as being the case, rather than being a possibility.

[SteveKlinko]

Just want to point out that I am not saying that the Particles just come out of Empty Space. I am saying that the Particles are made out of Empty Space. So if some Particles truly are made out of Empty Space and if everything else is made out of these elementary Particles then all Matter must be made out of Empty Space.

You still need to get rid of the ifs.

So we should never talk about possibilities in Philosophy?

You presented your "conclusion" as being the case, rather than being a possibility.

I guess I don't understand your objection. The if's make the conclusion only a possibility.