~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:52 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
........................................................ Totally agree with you. Good posts.
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How can you? As according to the posts there is no-one there to agree with.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:07 am

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Well, ultimately we are all consciousness. Consciousness.


We are not our body. We are not our emotions. We are not our thoughts.

We are pure consciousness. We are the thing that observes the body, emotions, and thoughts that we are trapped within.


So, in that respect, yes I realize that there is no-one there, ultimately, within me.


We do express ourselves with representative egos.


So, there is no light between whatever I have expressed here or in any one of my over 5,000 posts within this forum.








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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:44 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Well, ultimately we are all consciousness. Consciousness.


We are not our body. We are not our emotions. We are not our thoughts.

We are pure consciousness. We are the thing that observes the body, emotions, and thoughts that we are trapped within.


So, in that respect, yes I realize that there is no-one there, ultimately, within me.


We do express ourselves with representative egos.
Lots of "we's" and an "I" there, how you doing this? Given what you and the other gnu said.
So, there is no light between whatever I have expressed here or in any one of my over 5,000 posts within this forum. .
Couldn't agree more, no light whatsoever.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:26 am

Arising_uk wrote:Lots of "we's" and an "I" there, how you doing this?
If you already know this A_uk...why the endless same old question? ..you're replying to a oneness topic ...if you don't know, then look, listen and learn for the umpteenth time > from self to self, the eternal echo...aka oneness.

The Supreme Subject is unattainable, unimaginable, undeniable, ever present, and – manifest as the thought “I Am.” Seek the Source of "I Am"

Truth In Presentation

What follows are just concepts and ideas to rattle around in the brain. See that while this is occurring - you remain - as you always have been.
Present and Aware of the every changing appearance.

The 'me's' the 'you's' and the 'I's' are ideas...appearing in you but not you. You IS the Absolute = Everything and Nothing.

Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof. Everything and Nothing is doing.... Meaning: Nothing is done, yet nothing is left undone.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:32 pm

You ignore that we are a Body with senses in an external world. The 'I' that you talk about is due to this Body and the "I" that is the "Other" in us is us being able to model that external world due to the representations that the senses give us and that we have memory. The reason why you find 'nothing' at bottom is that you do not consider the Body something and so cannot see the ground of that it is. Why do you think all your ancient practices talk about the breath, why do they talk about the stomach, why do they have practices such as Yoga?

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:49 pm

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Actually, what you just articulated is just about what I expressed above.

Consciousness, the right brain, has the ability to watch itself; the manifest body, mind, & emotions.


We're saying the same thing.








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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:34 pm

Arising_uk wrote:You ignore that we are a Body with senses in an external world. The 'I' that you talk about is due to this Body and the "I" that is the "Other" in us is us being able to model that external world due to the representations that the senses give us and that we have memory. The reason why you find 'nothing' at bottom is that you do not consider the Body something and so cannot see the ground of that it is. Why do you think all your ancient practices talk about the breath, why do they talk about the stomach, why do they have practices such as Yoga?

'' I am not the body. The body is nothing without me. '' ...'me' being the I am.. aka the ground of all being.

The body is the instrument of seeing, knowing, being. The body is not the seer, knower, doer. Remember, the body is my agent...The body is seen, known, done all by I as a temporal appearance in me...but not me... for I am eternal life living and breathing through infinite appearances of me, as bodies. That's the only way I am able to exist as and through my instrument, aka the body vehicle.. the machine that moves me..while I never move, I always am unmoved by what appears as me...

Just as the toaster is useless without electricity pouring through it..the body is useless without consciousness pouring through it. Consciousness and only consciousness is the only I ... without I there is no body...and there is never not I..therefore bodies are I too, but not two. Just I ..all one...for the body is nothing without me.

The something is not what you think it is....the something is the eternal invisible one manifest as all things temporal...aka the nothings.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:52 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Actually, what you just articulated is just about what I expressed above.

Consciousness, the right brain, has the ability to watch itself; the manifest body, mind, & emotions.

We're saying the same thing.
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And as I've told you before Jayne's work has been proved to have been in error or at least not the whole story so this 'right-brain' stuff and it being an 'it' is just inter-weeble waffle.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:'' I am not the body. The body is nothing without me. '' ...'me' being the I am.. aka the ground of all being. ,,,
Show me you without a body? Show me any "I" without a body?
The body is the instrument of seeing, knowing, being. The body is not the seer, knower, doer. Remember, the body is my agent...The body is seen, known, done all by I as a temporal appearance in me...but not me... for I am eternal life living and breathing through infinite appearances of me, as bodies. That's the only way I am able to exist as and through my instrument, aka the body vehicle.. the machine that moves me..while I never move, I always am unmoved by what appears as me...
No, the body is the being of seeing and knowing. You talk about being the agent of the body but you also claim that there is nothing there of you, how are you doing this?
Just as the toaster is useless without electricity pouring through it..the body is useless without consciousness pouring through it. Consciousness and only consciousness is the only I ... without I there is no body...and there is never not I..therefore bodies are I too, but not two. Just I ..all one...for the body is nothing without me.
Never seen a coma patient or a catatonic? So what you say is true but the body is still there, as it is when you are dead but when the body is not you are not and without a body will never have been. Mind and matter are one and it's in the body that they are.
The something is not what you think it is....the something is the eternal invisible one manifest as all things temporal...aka the nothings.
The something is exactly what I think it is, a body with senses in an external world.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:30 pm

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......................................................
Julian Jaynes is freakin AWESOME! - How dare you!!!






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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:58 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:'' I am not the body. The body is nothing without me. '' ...'me' being the I am.. aka the ground of all being. ,,,
Show me you without a body? Show me any "I" without a body?
You're not listening very well to what's being pointed to here are you A_uk?

To show you a human body without an I ...would be to show you death...assuming you are talking about a human body that is...so in effect, I can't show you a body without an I....that is impossible since the I that I am is unborn, so who is going to show you? ..only the concept of I is born and dies.

I without a concept never dies, it is unborn...I without a concept is awareness that knows every concept as it is conceived in me the unborn inconceivable. I awareness have never been seen or known...I am the seeing, and knowing..seen and known in the concept aka conception..

So what is this you / I ..you are talking about ? ..are you talking about the concept of I?

Does a table have a you in it? ...does a tree have a you in it? ..tables and trees are concepts, as is the body...the body is the conception of me..aka I..but I am not the conception for I am always and forever inconceivably unknown or seen. I am ONE

Bodies, aka concepts come and go in I but I don't come and go. If I did, reality would not make sense one iota. The I manifests as both animate and inanimate concepts. There is no I in a tree, but it's a body of nature, so that's one way of showing you a body without an I ..I suppose.

From this argument..it is seen quite clearly there is only ever one I which doesn't die because it was never born...only the concept of I is born via the knowledge.. therefore knowledge is illusory, since the knower of knowledge is awareness the only I there is.


Arising_uk wrote:No, the body is the being of seeing and knowing. You talk about being the agent of the body but you also claim that there is nothing there of you, how are you doing this?
Don't confuse the I of awareness with the concept/belief of I. The I in this topic is referring to the I in which all things known by that I appear and disappear...which is consciousness without an object I...aka pure awareness.

No concept / belief is doing anything...doing is done whether the thought / belief of I is there or not.......as in when the body is asleep, in this state, the I belief is absent...but the real doer is not absent it's constantly here as the ground state of beingness....it's that presence that is beating your heart and breathing your breath while you sleep, it's that presence that wakes you from deep sleep when your name is called...it's your hearing, your seeing and all your senses ..etc etc..that eternal presence is not a thing, but in order for a no thing to be known no thing manifests as all things / concepts known in the instant they arise in I the one with the knowing ..which is only and ever awareness aware of itself alone.

To say 'I am doing' implies two..the doer of the done....no thing is doing, all doing is one unitary action.. no thing is powering the body machine to move.. the machine is run by electricity, aka consciousness on. Consciousness is an aspect of pure awareness, manifest as concept...aka conception I am. But that is neither alive or dead...the ground state of all being is pure awareness...which is not a concept but knows all concepts as they arise in it...hence the conception of I
Arising_uk wrote:The something is exactly what I think it is, a body with senses in an external world.
The I has never seen a thought. Thoughts are known by the I as concepts, concepts are not real, only I is real... which is unknowable by an other I for it is ever and only I - oneness.

What is only thought to exist, is the thought itself, completely invisible, and exists purely as a fictional character appearing real as the thought of I concept is believed...evidenced in the image, but there is nothing behind the image that can be found by the image, for the image is an i/dea/belief of I

No concept or belief has ever been seen...Life is a dream dreamt by no one. All beliefs are concepts, but not all concepts are beliefs.

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