~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Trajk Logik
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Trajk Logik » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:04 pm

Yes, we are all selfish. But if this is the case, then how can any of us work together in order to accomplish a shared goal, which happens a lot. This needs to be reconciled with the fact that we are all selfish.

Richard Dawkin's book, The Selfish Gene, argues that naturally selfish creatures with long memories and the ability to differentiate between members of the same species will eventually create a social structure that resembles a tit-for-tat - where everyone gains something when we return favors to those who have done something for us. Because we have long memories and are able to differentiate between members of our species, we can remember those that have cheated us or performed a favor for us. And because we have a means of communication with each other, we can share our experiences that we had with certain members with other members of our group so that they know who the cheaters are, which eventually limits the benefits cheaters have over those that do return favors.

Just think about how you expect to hear "thank you" and "please" when you perform a favor for someone else. Saying these things is our way of showing that we recognize the favor and that we will return the favor at some future date when needed. If someone says "thank you" and another doesn't, aren't you more inclined to perform the favor again for those that are thankful, and return favors as well?

Another thing is that we are all members of the same species, so our wants and needs are often shared and accomplished more efficiently when we work together. Sure, we are naturally selfish, but we are also naturally social, and our social environment is far more complex than any other species and requires us to learn the rules in order to navigate our selfish selves through it and maximize our use of it.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:09 pm

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Excellent post. Well thought-out & articulated. Thank you for responding.






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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:20 pm

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Bill Wiltrack wrote:.Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.
But is this the same as selfishness? As Ayn Rand pointed out there is an issue with what the word "selfishness" is meant to describe, so what do you mean by selfishness and how does it relate to this 'self-centeredness' and what does this mean too?



Not sure what AR would mean in reference to any words that she may have used.


Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.Within this particular thread you certainly could interchange the two words; self-centeredness/ selfishness wherever they may appear.

Ex: Selfishness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.

Is just as meaningful as;

Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.

Your fixation within the weeds of semantics is admirable


I am a big proponent of the acknowledgement of mirror-neurons, empathy and the development of higher states of consciousness.
How you can be a proponent of a biological function is beyond me?


You may have missed the forest for the trees here - I am a big proponent of the acknowledgement of mirror-neurons, empathy and the development of higher states of consciousness.

As a self-reflective philosopher I AM an individual who argues for the recognition of the concepts of mirror-neurons, empathy, and the development of higher states of consciousness.



What do you think you know about 'mirror-neurons' and their function?

As most members here who follow me and study my posts already know that I am a big fan of Jeremy Rifkin. In his youtube video The Empathetic Society he touches upon this relatively new concept of human interaction.

Suggest you see it.

Also, there is a lot of information on Google & the Wikipedia page will also be helpful to you I believe.

How you link it to 'the development of higher states of consciousness'(whatever these are supposed to be) escapes me as well. What do you mean by this?

It’s kind-of a conundrum if you will. However individuals characterize the gestalt of possible states of higher consciousness you cannot understand them until you experience it. A general common characteristic of most higher states of consciousness is that they are not a natural occurrence. They take effort. Usually an extended practice of self-consciousness.

Again, this is an arena that a possible novice as yourself would serve themselves well by beginning their understanding of what higher states of consciousness means by Googling it.

It is there that in the pursuit of a higher state of consciousness is where, I believe, the philosophical conception of altruism becomes valuable. ...
Does it, how?


Higher states of consciousness seem like they require and actually bring-on a detachment of sorts from oneself in our natural state.

Not sure if the philosophical conception of altruism would be of much value to someone such as yourself as you present yourself here.



...understanding that, functionally, we are all the same. And perhaps we are all seeking, in the same arena, a common philosophical goal.
Such as?


Such as the common philosophical goal of working towards higher states of consciousness. Things like that.


(Bugger! Have to remember to turn off the image function now you're back)

Please DO NOT TURN OFF YOUR IMAGE FUNCTION! You are witnessing the stylings of the one individual who has, almost singlehandedly, changed the focus & scope of this forum.

All posts here should not only be a concise sharing of literal fact & opinion but should also strive to be visually stimulating. Almost like a piece of art in itself.


By not being able to view images from fellow members here you castrate yourself from associated valuable content and may appear to be an eunuch in the eyes of me and possibly other members here.

In short - reducing your input of communications here makes YOU less...not us.


For now, fight your fear of information and I guarantee it will pay-off for you in the long run.


GREAT questions. Hope my responses helped - GOOD DAY!








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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:54 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Not sure what AR would mean in reference to any words that she may have used.
Your loss
Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.Within this particular thread you certainly could interchange the two words; self-centeredness/ selfishness wherever they may appear.

Ex: Selfishness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.

Is just as meaningful as;

Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share. ...
Well you're dead right there as so far they are pretty meaningless. Unless of course you get around to actually saying what you think they mean but I doubt that as it's just more gnomic gnu phrases from you. Hence when asked what you mean about something you just repeat what you've said which pretty much means you have no idea what you are saying but are just paraphrasing something you've heard or read.
Your fixation within the weeds of semantics is admirable

Thank you, I am concerned with what words mean to those who utter them but given what you've just said about 'weeds' I think you and Trump must get on like a house on fire.

You may have missed the forest for the trees here - I am a big proponent of the acknowledgement of mirror-neurons, empathy and the development of higher states of consciousness.

As a self-reflective philosopher I AM an individual who argues for the recognition of the concepts of mirror-neurons, empathy, and the development of higher states of consciousness.
Any chance this self-reflective 'philosopher' might reflect that just restating what you've said when asked what you meant is not very reflective?

On top of that what on earth do you mean by the 'concept of mirror-neurons'? They are not conceptual.
As most members here who follow me and study my posts already know that I am a big fan of Jeremy Rifkin. In his youtube video The Empathetic Society he touches upon this relatively new concept of human interaction.

Suggest you see it.
And it suggests what? That if we find those without these 'mirror-neurons' we can treat them as less than those with? And if it turns out we've all got them than why is it not just interesting from a scientific viewpoint but not from any possible change in behaviour other than amongst the shrinks.
Also, there is a lot of information on Google & the Wikipedia page will also be helpful to you I believe.
You're right it was-

Wiki - "Rifkin's work has also been controversial. Opponents have attacked the lack of scientific rigor in his claims as well as some of the tactics he has used to promote his views. The Harvard scientist Stephen Jay Gould characterized Rifkin's 1983 book "Algeny" as "a cleverly constructed tract of anti-intellectual propaganda masquerading as scholarship".

You, Trump and him then.
It’s kind-of a conundrum if you will. However individuals characterize the gestalt of possible states of higher consciousness you cannot understand them until you experience it. A general common characteristic of most higher states of consciousness is that they are not a natural occurrence. They take effort. Usually an extended practice of self-consciousness.

Again, this is an arena that a possible novice as yourself would serve themselves well by beginning their understanding of what higher states of consciousness means by Googling it.
Basically more gnushit from you. Although you could prove me wrong and tell me the techniques you use to achieve these 'states of higher consciousness' and what results or outcomes you have achieved with them.
Higher states of consciousness seem like they require and actually bring-on a detachment of sorts from oneself in our natural state.

Not sure if the philosophical conception of altruism would be of much value to someone such as yourself as you present yourself here. ...
Well give that you've said bugger all about how to achieve such states I think you're right, they are of little value to me.
Such as the common philosophical goal of working towards higher states of consciousness. Things like that.
Go on, just one example - pretty please.
Please DO NOT TURN OFF YOUR IMAGE FUNCTION! You are witnessing the stylings of the one individual who has, almost singlehandedly, changed the focus & scope of this forum.
Are delusional megalomania and NPD examples of these 'higher states of consciousness'?

All posts here should not only be a concise sharing of literal fact & opinion but should also strive to be visually stimulating. Almost like a piece of art in itself.
Why?
By not being able to view images from fellow members here you castrate yourself from associated valuable content and may appear to be an eunuch in the eyes of me and possibly other members here.

In short - reducing your input of communications here makes YOU less...not us.
:lol: Is insecurity under the eyes of others another one of these 'higher states of consciousness' and are nasty little psycho-babble games like these an example of the techniques your 'higher states of consciousness' produce?
For now, fight your fear of information and I guarantee it will pay-off for you in the long run.
But it's information I'm seeking from you? You really need to overcome this fear of sentences ending with question marks as they mark you as just another gnu.
GREAT questions. Hope my responses helped - GOOD DAY! [/size]
As usual, no they didn't.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:23 am

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Patience, my mentee. Patience.


You honor me with your trust & inquisitiveness.

Alas, I must wax philosophically. The answers to all of your noble questions will come in time...due time.


Hope I have given you much to explore & think about!


Keep learning!



...oh, and BTW - Jeremy Rifkin has taught longer than any other professor at the Wharton School of Business in Pennsylvania.

Wharton is the oldest and must esteemed business school in the world. The current President of the United States has graduated from Wharton...so there's that.




Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.


And one day - you too will see...







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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:53 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:. Patience, my mentee. Patience.
Delusional.

You honor me with your trust & inquisitiveness.
Patently delusional.
Alas, I must wax philosophically. The answers to all of your noble questions will come in time...due time.
Try waxing philosophically and answer a question.
Hope I have given you much to explore & think about!
Not really, just the same old same old self-absorbed me, me, me, gnushite and a pessimistic one at that.
Keep learning!
Unlike you I have. You are still stuck in the same old loop chasing a decades-old experience and hunting for something to replace your lost catholic faith.
...oh, and BTW - Jeremy Rifkin has taught longer than any other professor at the Wharton School of Business in Pennsylvania.

Wharton is the oldest and must esteemed business school in the world. The current President of the United States has graduated from Wharton...so there's that.
:lol: And that's a recommendation!? Given that it's money that gets you an education there pretty much everyone graduates.

You need to really grasp that America is not the world - ESCP

What Rifkin talks about has been done and dusted in Sci-fi over two decades ago and like sci-fi futurologists have a very poor record about such matters.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Who?

Those catholic slips are showing again.
And one day - you too will see...
Already been there. You're so far behind.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:24 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Selfishness is inseparability woven into our natural state of consciousness. Our natural, healthy worldview.

Selfishness can only exist where there is a self.

Consciousness does not have self. It's not a self. The Self arises in consciousness as an idea known, but it's a fiction, so in a sense, there is no such thing as selfishness since that implies a self and there isn't one.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:02 am

“All the evil in the world, and all the unhappiness, comes from the I-concept.”

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:48 am

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Totally agree with you. Good posts.






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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:48 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.





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Totally agree with you. Good posts.



How could it even be conceivable that a large group of fire would be able to, expect to, or even want to, create it's opposite - water?



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Another way of approaching this...

The water can put out the fire, but the fire can never extinguish the water. When water is heated, it evaporates. The molecules move and vibrate so quickly that they escape into the atmosphere as molecules of water vapor. Water gives life, fire takes life away, but water gives new life to what is taken away. Water and fire stay, for without both working as a team life is impossible. They are one and the same endless cycle of life and death.

Image

Liquid mind. :wink:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 6a25a8.jpg


“We live in an ocean of air like fish in a body of water. By our breathing we are attuned to our atmosphere. If we inhibit our breathing we isolate ourselves from the medium in which we exist. In all Oriental and mystic philosophies, the breath holds the secret to the highest bliss.”



Enjoy you bliss Bill :wink: The air is free, and it's lovely. :P




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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:47 pm

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WOW!...............LOVE your posts!



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PLUS - You used a GREAT & relevant image. Well done. Really.





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Dontaskme
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:33 pm

Image


From one right brainer to another. Nice to see you back posting again Bill. Always love your posts too. :D

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:44 pm

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You just topped yourself! You are officially THE BEST POSTER here on The PhilosophyNow Forums now!






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Harbal
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Harbal » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:04 pm

A marriage made in hell.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:24 pm

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I see what you mean...A thoughtful, artistic, well spoken individual now posting on the PhilosophyNow Forums.


...guess that would be hell for you...








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