Subconscious mind?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:20 am

Terrapin Station wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to believe that I had that idea prior to it being a conscious phenomenon
What about the time difference between a thought existing in your mind and you being aware of this

sthitapragya
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by sthitapragya » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:07 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to believe that I had that idea prior to it being a conscious phenomenon
What about the time difference between a thought existing in your mind and you being aware of this
You have no way of knowing that it existed in your mind before you were aware of it.

surreptitious57
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:12 am

sthitapragya wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to believe that I had that idea prior to it being a conscious phenomenon
What about the time difference between a thought existing in your mind and you being aware of this
You have no way of knowing that it existed in your mind before you were aware of it
The unconscious mind can make a decision before the conscious mind is aware of it

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/br ... you-decide

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:24 pm

bahman wrote:Why you think so? Do you have an argument or evidence for that?
The absence of any reason to believe that it's mental.

It's like if someone told you that the way that automobile alternators work is that they have a small, living orange tree inside of them. The complete absence of any reason to believe that claim would be sufficient for not buying it.
I don't quite understand why you are saying here. Do you mean that forming an idea and poping into conscious mind is a conscious phenomena?
The scenario was that all of a sudden, you have an idea in consciousness, right? So yes, per that scenario, the idea that you all of a sudden have is a conscious phenomenon. That's what was stipulated--"All of a sudden, there is an idea present in one's consciousness." And what I noted is that there's no reason whatsoever to believe that prior to that idea being in consciousness, that idea existed as an idea in one's unconscious mind.

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:25 pm

Ginkgo wrote:
bahman wrote: Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Probably not, we can only attend to a couple of things at a time. It is very difficult to have two streams of thought that are no bound into a single experiential state. Most of what goes on in the brain is unconscious, it is only when we decide to attend that subconscious thoughts become conscious.
I think that subconscious mind can perform several process at the same time. I don't know yet whether these processes are thought or not. So why our conscious minds cannot function like subconscious mind?

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:27 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to believe that I had that idea prior to it being a conscious phenomenon
What about the time difference between a thought existing in your mind and you being aware of this
You have no way of knowing that it existed in your mind before you were aware of it.
That is not true. I sometimes have a sense of what thought is about before the thoughts becomes completely clear in my mind.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:35 pm

bahman wrote:That is not true. I sometimes have a sense of what thought is about
That would be a conscious phenomenon, or you couldn't be aware of it. (by definition--if you're aware of it, it's present to your consciousness)
before the thoughts becomes completely clear in my mind.
You can't be aware of the thoughts that are completely clear in your mind prior to them being completely clear in your mind.

You could think something vague ("a sense of what thought is about") that becomes less vague, but all of that is conscious phenomena. There's no evidence there of unconscious mental phenomena.

What it seems that you're assuming is that the thought that is completely clear at time T2 must be there wholesale, completely clear, at time T1--it's just that you're not aware of that completely clear thought yet at time T1. But there's absolutely no reason to believe this.

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:39 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
bahman wrote: That is not true. I sometimes have a sense of what thought is about
That would be a conscious phenomenon, or you couldn't be aware of it. (by definition--if you're aware of it, it's present to your consciousness)
before the thoughts becomes completely clear in my mind.
You can't be aware of the thoughts that are completely clear in your mind prior to them being completely clear in your mind.

You could think something vague ("a sense of what thought is about") that becomes less vague, but all of that is conscious phenomena. There's no evidence there of unconscious mental phenomena.

What it seems that you're assuming is that the thought that is completely clear at time T2 must be there wholesale, completely clear, at time T1--it's just that you're not aware of that completely clear thought yet at time T1. But there's absolutely no reason to believe this.
Well formation of thought in conscious mind takes time. It is quite reasonable that you have experience like mine. After all that is what I experienced.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:50 pm

bahman wrote:Well formation of thought in conscious mind takes time. It is quite reasonable that you have experience like mine. After all that is what I experienced.
It can take time for a thought to go from being vague to being clear, certainly. And that's all conscious phenomena. There's no evidence of unconscious mental phenomena there at all, and you didn't mention any evidence of unconscious mental phenomena. You couldn't be aware of any unconscious mental phenomena in the first place, because the idea of that is contradictory. If you're aware of something, you're conscious of it, and "x is conscious" contradicts "x is unconscious."

OuterLimits
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by OuterLimits » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:30 pm

In a different colored room, people on balance answer a test questions differently.

To some people, this is evidence for what some would call "the subconscious mind".

At the other extreme, some will merely label the question-answering a "behavior" and look for neurological chains of cause-and-effect without wading through the mud of what parts of the whole process are "conscious, subconscious, etc".

Attributing subjective consciousness to one's test subjects is not a strictly scientific approach, moreover.

Beauty
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Beauty » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:34 am

I am in the market-place shopping for some clothes. I like two dresses, but am confused as to which one to buy. Buying both is not a consideration. Either get the one the subconscious says, or reject both, for something better is 'round the corner the subconscious says. The subconscious comes to make the decision for us, when the conscious is confused. But we may listen or not. If we don't listen, then we regret later on, having made the wrong decision. The subconscious is God - Higher MInd - Higher Consciousness - guiding us in the right way always, through voice of conscience and feeling in the heart(subconsciousness).

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:45 am

Beauty wrote: I am in the market-place shopping for some clothes. I like two dresses, but am confused as to which one to buy. Buying both is not a consideration. Either get the one the subconscious says, or reject both, for something better is 'round the corner the subconscious says. The subconscious comes to make the decision for us, when the conscious is confused. But we may listen or not. If we don't listen, then we regret later on, having made the wrong decision. The subconscious is God - Higher MInd - Higher Consciousness - guiding us in the right way always, through voice of conscience and feeling in the heart(subconsciousness).
I don't think that subconscious mind has any relation with God. It is simply a part of our minds. I also think that conscience is an inner voice which is the result of all experience in our lives, what we are Taught and what we are (our genes).

Ginkgo
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Ginkgo » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:06 am

bahman wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
bahman wrote: Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Probably not, we can only attend to a couple of things at a time. It is very difficult to have two streams of thought that are no bound into a single experiential state. Most of what goes on in the brain is unconscious, it is only when we decide to attend that subconscious thoughts become conscious.
I think that subconscious mind can perform several process at the same time. I don't know yet whether these processes are thought or not. So why our conscious minds cannot function like subconscious mind?
I don't think subconscious thoughts are thoughts as such, they only become thoughts when we decide to attend. For example,consider the cocktail party effect. The conservation around us is just a loud confused noise to our ears, but if someone in across the room mentions our name we immediately hear this clearly over the din and we focus in on what they are saying.

sthitapragya
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by sthitapragya » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:09 am

bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
What about the time difference between a thought existing in your mind and you being aware of this
You have no way of knowing that it existed in your mind before you were aware of it.
That is not true. I sometimes have a sense of what thought is about before the thoughts becomes completely clear in my mind.
No, you don't. If you have a sense of what a thought is about, you have already thought it, haven't you? What you are suggesting is an impossibility. You are suggesting that you have a thought before you can think it.

sthitapragya
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by sthitapragya » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:12 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote: What about the time difference between a thought existing in your mind and you being aware of this
You have no way of knowing that it existed in your mind before you were aware of it
The unconscious mind can make a decision before the conscious mind is aware of it

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/br ... you-decide
We are not talking about decisions made by the subconscious mind. We are talking about thoughts of the conscious mind.

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