What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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sthitapragya
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:43 pm

bahman wrote:
We become conscious of situation, realising options. We become conscious of one option in any given point. We then decide for our benefits but decision cannot be done consciously too because we cannot consciously process options at the same time. So what is the point of being conscious?
We do not become conscious of a situation. When we are in a situation, external stimuli alert the brain to the situation, the brain then stimulates the necessary part of the brain which comes up with the options. Meanwhile, the brain is translating the options for itself in the language it has been trained in. This translation is what the brain perceives as thought. The brain is at the same time aware that it is receiving the thought, has the ability to marvel at its own thought and the ability to question why it is thinking. This is what the brain itself calls consciousness. There is a lot of stuff the brain does not translate for itself. Those are the involuntary functions it carries out.

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:21 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
bahman wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: We can and do have thoughts we simply experience. But the key to our survival is manipulating them into new thoughts, and putting those into memory.
And looking for answers to why thought is, or consciousness is, is asking for theeaning to existence. Pointless to ask, in my opinion, though fun to speculate on.
We become conscious of situation, realising options. We become conscious of one option in any given point. We then decide for our benefits but decision cannot be done consciously too because we cannot consciously process options at the same time. We then become conscious of decision. So what is the point of being conscious?
You are now asking an antinatalist what the point is of consciousness and awareness (life), which has no reason or purpose, and what I always say isn't necessary? A bit ironic.
Yeah, we become conscious of things when the job is done by subconsciousness!

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:41 pm

bahman wrote:
Yeah, we become conscious of things when the job is done by subconsciousness!
Sorry. The subconscious part of the brain controls the processes of the body. It has no role to play in thought processes as those are not translated by the brain otherwise there would be an overload of information.

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:36 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote: I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?
Lets assume that thoughts create consciousness. What do we get from being conscious of a thought? Why thoughts create consciousness?
Thoughts convey a sense of self as separate from others. Thoughts also make our complex brains understand that we are thinking and that awareness is what we call consciousness.
What is the use of imprisoned self when thoughts are processed and decision are made by subconsciousness?

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:40 pm

sthitapragya wrote: Other animals have the benefit of thought without being conscious of them...
I do think so. Animals to my understand have thought and they are conscious too.

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:45 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
bahman wrote: We become conscious of situation, realising options. We become conscious of one option in any given point. We then decide for our benefits but decision cannot be done consciously too because we cannot consciously process options at the same time. So what is the point of being conscious?
We do not become conscious of a situation. When we are in a situation, external stimuli alert the brain to the situation, the brain then stimulates the necessary part of the brain which comes up with the options. Meanwhile, the brain is translating the options for itself in the language it has been trained in. This translation is what the brain perceives as thought. The brain is at the same time aware that it is receiving the thought, has the ability to marvel at its own thought and the ability to question why it is thinking. This is what the brain itself calls consciousness. There is a lot of stuff the brain does not translate for itself. Those are the involuntary functions it carries out.
Most of the stuff you mentioned are done by subconscious mind. We perceive thoughts when they are delivered by subconsciousness. We don't do most of the things you mentioned by conscious mind.

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:51 pm

sthitapragya wrote: Sorry. The subconscious part of the brain controls the processes of the body. It has no role to play in thought processes as those are not translated by the brain otherwise there would be an overload of information.
This is the claim of the thread: How conscious mind can process thought when we can be conscious of one thought at any given time? We cannot of course be conscious of thoughts since that causes overload of information. It is because of this reason that one can argue that thoughts are processed by subconscious mind.

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:44 am

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I think were on the same page, but the brain and what we call consciousness within it must come first in order to generate a thought, no?
No. From what I have understood, it seems logical that as we grow up, and understand language, somewhere down the line we become aware of the fact that we are aware. The first awareness comes from external stimuli which produces a thought which is interpreted by the brain as either pain or whatever which makes us aware of our own existence. I am convinced that if someone were to be born without any of the five senses, they would never become aware. Their body would be kept alive by the brain but in the absence of external stimuli the awareness of self would not come since there would be absolutely no input whatsoever.
Yes, I see where you're going with this, but the consciousness would still be there. But its a tough call, because to have none of the senses is an impossibility. (Think internal distress.)

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:21 am

bahman wrote:
What is the use of imprisoned self when thoughts are processed and decision are made by subconsciousness?
All decisions are not made by the subconscious. Only processes of the body are handled by the subconscious.

sthitapragya
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:22 am

bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote: Other animals have the benefit of thought without being conscious of them...
I do think so. Animals to my understand have thought and they are conscious too.
Yes, they do but they do not seem to be aware of their own consciousness.

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:35 am

bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
We do not become conscious of a situation. When we are in a situation, external stimuli alert the brain to the situation, the brain then stimulates the necessary part of the brain which comes up with the options. Meanwhile, the brain is translating the options for itself in the language it has been trained in. This translation is what the brain perceives as thought. The brain is at the same time aware that it is receiving the thought, has the ability to marvel at its own thought and the ability to question why it is thinking. This is what the brain itself calls consciousness. There is a lot of stuff the brain does not translate for itself. Those are the involuntary functions it carries out.
Most of the stuff you mentioned are done by subconscious mind. We perceive thoughts when they are delivered by subconsciousness. We don't do most of the things you mentioned by conscious mind.
Here. This might help. http://www.thegeniewithin.com/lesson-2

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:36 am

bahman wrote:
This is the claim of the thread: How conscious mind can process thought when we can be conscious of one thought at any given time? We cannot of course be conscious of thoughts since that causes overload of information. It is because of this reason that one can argue that thoughts are processed by subconscious mind.
One can argue anything if one refuses to see any other point of view at all. Just go through the link I gave you. It might help make things more clear.

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:39 am

Dalek Prime wrote: Yes, I see where you're going with this, but the consciousness would still be there. But its a tough call, because to have none of the senses is an impossibility. (Think internal distress.)
DP, there would be no awareness of internal distress either, since the body would completely lack all the five senses.

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:33 am

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: Yes, I see where you're going with this, but the consciousness would still be there. But its a tough call, because to have none of the senses is an impossibility. (Think internal distress.)
DP, there would be no awareness of internal distress either, since the body would completely lack all the five senses.
Then I would again suggest that this is an impossibility, and even as a mental model, is impossible to predict. For all we know, phantasmagoric dreams and thoughts may emerge with time. I say this, as I know of a man who was blind from birth, yet could draw perspective. That should not have occurred otherwise.

Btw, do you believe that a being lacking all senses would not notice it is chocking, or gasping for oxygen, chocking off it's vital oxygen flow, even if it could not sense pain? Because then, the mental model you suggest, would require it contain no brain or consciousness either. And so the model would fail as instructive.

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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:45 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Btw, do you believe that a being lacking all senses would not notice it is chocking, or gasping for oxygen, chocking off it's vital oxygen flow, even if it could not sense pain? Because then, the mental model you suggest, would require it contain no brain or consciousness either. And so the model would fail as instructive.
The brain probably would notice something and go into damage control of some kind, but since the body would not be self aware, it would probably not be conscious of the problem. sort of like when person has convulsions or goes into cardiac arrest when under sedation or general anesthesia and has no clue about it when he/ she wakes up. During surgery and under sedation, we have no clue of the trauma our body suffers. That is because the conscious part of the brain is shut down. All the translation stops. Only the non-translating part of the brain keeps functioning.

This is all in the realm of fantasy, but I am simply trying to put myself in such a position, which again is nearly impossible. It's an interesting chain of thought but obviously I have no idea if I am right or wrong or even close to the truth here. :D

Also consider this. We have no memories of the time when we were babies. None whatsoever. Whatever childhood memories we have, are all of the time after we learnt a language. As our vocabularies grew, we retained more and more memories. We become aware only after we learn a language is what I get from this.

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